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Thread: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

  1. #121
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    PCS standalone controller will be needed for all out drag setup. The problem with the 41TE is all the shift timing/fill volume is different on a WOT shift vs partial shift. I talked to PCS engineer years ago, he said if it was to only be a drag application it could work. But then a new input shaft needs made which I somewhat figured out. But I decided I did want to start over and kept developing the a413 platform. The planetary will def need upgraded, the pinions are pretty beefy. Just a lot of unknowns and the valve body needs modified which really is above my head lol

  2. #122
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    Yes i know that the shift timing is CRITICAL. thats why the controllers had adaptives to dial in the shift over time and keep it shifting the same way... at least till the CVI reaches their limit.

    I would want to define the tables and figure out what they do just to try to make the shift faster.

    The arduino deal would only work perfectly for that transmission that was datalogged to create the protocol and only until the clutches wore a little bit.

    applied to another gearbox with different wear, the timing would need to be tweaked. the adaptives are imperative which is why I would prefer hacking the TCC.

    RacerStev proved that gears 1-3 of the transmission could handle 650-700hp bone stock with the aftermarket controller running the show.

    Brian
    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    PCS standalone controller will be needed for all out drag setup. The problem with the 41TE is all the shift timing/fill volume is different on a WOT shift vs partial shift. I talked to PCS engineer years ago, he said if it was to only be a drag application it could work. But then a new input shaft needs made which I somewhat figured out. But I decided I did want to start over and kept developing the a413 platform. The planetary will def need upgraded, the pinions are pretty beefy. Just a lot of unknowns and the valve body needs modified which really is above my head lol
    My question is why does the timing HAVE to be different for different throttle positions? For a performance application, if it shifts harsh, who cares? It's also my argument for why the adaptives can be left out. As long as the shift occurs within the prescribed time, in a performance application, it shouldn't matter. Set the rpm in, rpm out, and time for it to complete...no matter what. The load (based on throttle position and MAP) will determine the activation point for the shift. That parameter would no longer have anything to do with the clutch application timing.

  3. #123
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    To harsh and the clutch packs will come on and cause an overlap condition and burn the frictions up. Like I said the PCS will work on a wot drag setup not normal driving street car.

  4. #124
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    My question is why does the timing HAVE to be different for different throttle positions? For a performance application, if it shifts harsh, who cares? It's also my argument for why the adaptives can be left out. As long as the shift occurs within the prescribed time, in a performance application, it shouldn't matter. Set the rpm in, rpm out, and time for it to complete...no matter what. The load (based on throttle position and MAP) will determine the activation point for the shift. That parameter would no longer have anything to do with the clutch application timing.
    it has to be different for different power levels because you have 2 different events that have to mesh and more power is going to lengthen the time it takes for the clutch to apply. on a naturally aspirated vehicle, TPS pretty much determines the power level. I dont know what they did on the PT cruiser but the turbos were so small and spooled so fast that TPS or calculated torque could be the input to vary the shift timing.

    You cant get away with no adaptives for wear. more wear means longer fill times. that will change and your "just-rebuilt-trans" nice and tidy shift times will now equate to binds and flares with the fill times being increased.

    if it was a single apply or a single release event, sure. who cares about adaptives.... but on a release/apply 2 changes at the same time gearbox, you have to have something that adjust for wear. if you dont, you get all the flaring and broken gearbox stuff that happened to Una when he was trying to work with the megashift guys to develop 41te shift logic.

    with your example of RPM in and RPM out and time to complete, you will still need adaptives as the time to complete an apply or release will change over the life of the trans.

    if you are ok with tweaking that over time then sure it will work.

    If we had guys willing to develop our own code based on the logic of the patent docs then we could pull it off ourselves with the cheap, fast microprocessors that are out there these days and they could code it in a higher level language than assembly to make it easier..... but its a big project. starting out with the code from the megashift stuff and add adaptives to it might be doable though.... they had it working. they just didnt have the amount of people eager enough to keep working on it.

    I dont know which is harder. make a new controller or reverse engineer all the tables needed to adjust the shifts and keep the adaptives of the factory stuff. i wonder if there are 68hc11 reverse engineering guys out there that are willing to do the work if we crowdfund it.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  5. #125
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    PCS standalone controller will be needed for all out drag setup. The problem with the 41TE is all the shift timing/fill volume is different on a WOT shift vs partial shift. I talked to PCS engineer years ago, he said if it was to only be a drag application it could work. But then a new input shaft needs made which I somewhat figured out. But I decided I did want to start over and kept developing the a413 platform. The planetary will def need upgraded, the pinions are pretty beefy. Just a lot of unknowns and the valve body needs modified which really is above my head lol
    Steve modified the VB on the trans I have and I thought the mods were added to the wiki, but not 100% on that. Shafts can be made (group buy) but guys like Warren S. have proven that a properly prepped (deburred and polished) stock shaft can handle a Lot more power for extended periods without failure.

    Robert Mclellan
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    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
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    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  6. #126
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    it has to be different for different power levels because you have 2 different events that have to mesh and more power is going to lengthen the time it takes for the clutch to apply. on a naturally aspirated vehicle, TPS pretty much determines the power level. I dont know what they did on the PT cruiser but the turbos were so small and spooled so fast that TPS or calculated torque could be the input to vary the shift timing.

    You cant get away with no adaptives for wear. more wear means longer fill times. that will change and your "just-rebuilt-trans" nice and tidy shift times will now equate to binds and flares with the fill times being increased.

    if it was a single apply or a single release event, sure. who cares about adaptives.... but on a release/apply 2 changes at the same time gearbox, you have to have something that adjust for wear. if you dont, you get all the flaring and broken gearbox stuff that happened to Una when he was trying to work with the megashift guys to develop 41te shift logic.

    with your example of RPM in and RPM out and time to complete, you will still need adaptives as the time to complete an apply or release will change over the life of the trans.

    if you are ok with tweaking that over time then sure it will work.

    If we had guys willing to develop our own code based on the logic of the patent docs then we could pull it off ourselves with the cheap, fast microprocessors that are out there these days and they could code it in a higher level language than assembly to make it easier..... but its a big project. starting out with the code from the megashift stuff and add adaptives to it might be doable though.... they had it working. they just didnt have the amount of people eager enough to keep working on it.

    I dont know which is harder. make a new controller or reverse engineer all the tables needed to adjust the shifts and keep the adaptives of the factory stuff. i wonder if there are 68hc11 reverse engineering guys out there that are willing to do the work if we crowdfund it.

    Brian
    This project will be running the AEM EMS which has a decent auto trans controller section. (at least it seemed decent when I went through it years ago). Gave me the impression that it could control a simple board with the proper fast microprocessors/ switches.

    Although I would prefer to develop something more universal that the entire community could benefit from.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  7. #127
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Be great if you could find all that info on VB. I wouldn’t waste my time with stock shaft. Plus having a race converter made will be even harder to find a converter place to make a real converter like I had made for the a413.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Buy a PCS controller and be done

  8. #128
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    Be great if you could find all that info on VB. I wouldn’t waste my time with stock shaft. Plus having a race converter made will be even harder to find a converter place to make a real converter like I had made for the a413.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Buy a PCS controller and be done
    Will have to look back on what all Steve did, as we got the trans he was building up. He either had convertor tweeked before selling to us, or had one made for our application and it came with 1 free (just have to pay shipping) tweek IMS. Been so long I can't be sure.....

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  9. #129
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I didn't think the PCS controller was #1 available any longer, and #2 supported the 41TE any longer?

    As for the shift timing, I was thinking that the logic to complete the shift would interpolate the PWM of the solenoids to accomplish the shift within that time.

    I guess I need to go back and look at the physical method the shifts work, but I could have sworn that 1-2 was just 1 piston moving back and forth. Kind of impossible to bind that up. The 2-3 shift is a different story, but I don't remember its exact workings.

    One thing being left out of the discussion, and might be addressed through the VB modifications is the line pressure. Just bringing it up. I have no input on it right now.

  10. #130
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    The older A604s do not have any adjustment of line pressure except on what range you are in P,N,D use 120-145 psi line, R is 175-225 psi, 3rd (direct) and 4th (OD) line pressure is dropped to 75-95 psi (this is from our 05 T&C with 3.8L V6). Supposedly some of the newer ones do have a duty cycle pressure control solenoid (like my Ford E4OD does). The 6 speeds I believe have that also. According to my AllData, 2007 41TEs have variable line pressure. There is a VPS (Variable Pressure Solenoid) and a pressure sensor allowing the TCM to control the line pressure. The hydraulic diagrams show the VPS pressure applied to the end of the pressure regulator opposite the spring. My guess would be a failed in the closed mode would give max line pressure where failing in the open mode would give minimum line pressure. This would be if it regulates by allowing pressure through it when open, if it seals a bleed port when off then a closed failure would give max line pressure. The pictures show that it and the sensor have a separate electrical connector from either the range sensor or two speed sensors.

  11. #131
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Nice to know! I do remember that if it goes too high the stock TCM throws it into limp mode.

    The "ultimate" TCM program is the one from the Prowler. That program incorporates "slap shift" and is aggressive enough that it will bark tires on modified Prowlers. The only issue that I know of is that in order to get that program flashed, you need the VIN of the car...so you have to have the VIN of a Prowler, and a person with a Chrysler DRBII willing to do it.

    Of course that is on a 42LE, and those are more like the later 41TE than the early A604. You would have to put in a slap shifter from a LH or cloud car (or Prowler) because of the built-in range sensor (and I would assume you would want to be able to "slap shift") and if you have a '90 or older car/van, you will either have to swap the passenger's side tail shaft to retain the SDS or figure out how to get the speedo to work (for a street car).

  12. #132
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    there is a patent doc talking about various chrysler ecu's outputting a version/engine code to the TCU (via the CCD bus?) so that the TCU selects a different set of shift programming..... i wonder if any other TCU's of the prowler era have the prowler code inside and its only activated when the prowler signal is sent to the TCU.

    I vaguely remember Ken Soroka talking about something similar to this.

    so say that this is possible..... get a 2.4 version of the trans around the same time as the prowler..... sniff the CCD bus of a prowler and the CCD bus of a stratus or something. https://chryslerccdsci.wordpress.com/ see if the engine info can be injected to the TCC and see if it changes the shift programming.

    wild idea but thats where good things start lol.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  13. #133
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I can't say this with certainty, but I wouldn't think that every TCM would have *every* possible set of shift parameters in it. They were flashable after all, so it makes more sense for the TCM to have a certain program flashed on it, then request a "verification" from the SBEC via CCD bus. I'm not sure how integrated the later CCD's got to the TCM, but on the early stuff, only the 3.8 actually "interacted" with the TCM as the TCM would request a torque reduction during a shift at high load through the bus. I feel sure that the bus was also used to produce the speedometer signal as after '91 the SDS was no more. Speed was derived from the output turbine speed sensor and a gear ratio factor.

  14. #134
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    we will never know unless we get some TCM's and figure out how to pull the data and solicit folks like the guy that did the reverse engineering on the SCI/CCD bus.

    im going to reach out to him and the guy who he references as well to see if they would be interested.

    we, as the beggars, may have to crowdfund the purchase of something like a prowler TCM.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  15. #135
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by message sent to Daniel the CCD hacker guy
    Hello Daniel,

    My name is Brian Bucar and I came across your work because I have been involved in tuning 80's and early 90's turbo Chrysler products that use the early SCI bus protocol and I came across your blog during a web search involving Chrysler engine and transmission controllers. Some of us in this community have had a few people poking around at trying to reverse engineer the late 80's and early 90's Chrysler 4-speed transmission controller but haven't been the most successful. (see link provided in your "website" field) Given your work with the CCD and SCI bus, would you be interested in doing any reverse engineering with the A604/41TE transmission controller? We as the turbo Chrysler community would support you in any way that we can. We have dug up the patent docs on the control scheme and have some code dumped from a controller.

    Thanks,

    Brian Bucar
    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  16. #136
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    If you can figure out what TCM you need, I am going to my favorite junkyard on another quest (a Sebring convertible heated rear window to see if it can be adapted to a 1986 LeBaron) and I can ask about one, I do have a couple here along with a 41TE, but not new enough for the VLP and a cloud car shifter complete with the Hall Effect +/- shift sensors. It only has PRNDS on the quadrant but has + - on the slot all the way back. I have verified that an A413 right side extension will bolt on.

    Now if I can just find a reasonable way to attach it to a 2.2/2.5L engine, and it would be nice if the front side starter mount would work. What I have determined this transaxle came off a 2.0 or 2.4L non-turbo engine and several interesting items TC bolt pattern matches the A413, and the flex plate bolt pattern matches the 2.2/2.5L crank. Now the bad part, flex plate is smaller and has very coarse teeth, 2.2/2.5L flex plate will not go into the 41TE case. Lower starter bolt ends up close to the lower front transaxle to block and motor mount location, there is no timing mark on that end of the powertrain, since they are a DIS system, the only timing marks would be for the belt.

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