Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56
yeah he made valve body adjustments that TCM had to reprogram into their shift controller to get the shift timing right again.
all of the features would be wasted time if shift speed cant be addressed.
after that, then add all kinds of features.... torque management on the shift, shift paddles, 4th gear lockout, boost based shift speed (high boost, hammer the shift as fast as possible) etc.
Brian
Originally Posted by turbovanman
In search of illustrating a workflow i stumbled upon a nice nifty tool on dr. dobbs site.
Let me show you
This is an example assembler code which sorts some dataCode:;-------------------------------- ; bubble sort routine for Mitsubishi 740 series microprocessor ; Entry: list = zero page pointer to unordered list of integers ; the first element in the list is the length ; Exit: the list is sorted ;-------------------------------- sort: ldx #0 ; clear the "swapped" flag lda (list,x) ; fetch length tay ; y = length of list loop lda (list),y ; a = list[y] dey ; decrement index v'ble beq finish ; skip out if done with list cmp (list),y ; is list[y] > list[y-1] ? bcs loop ; if so, keep going tax ; save list[y] in x reg lda (list),y ; fetch the other list element iny ; increment pointer sta (list),y ; store the larger element txa ; remember the smaller one dey ; decrement pointer again sta (list),y ; store that element ldx #1 ; set the "swapped" flag bra loop ; loop back finish txa ; were any elements exchanged? bne sort ; if so, go through the list again rts ; otherwise we're done
This is the workflow, going from top to bottom.
On the right side you see the branches and jumps towards higher adresses
and on the left side you see jumps back to lower adresses.
And now lets have a look inside the TCM eprom
Now lets zoom a little bit ...
The more you zoom into the more details you can see from the workflow.
You can easily spot out regions of interest.
The software is written in pearl and you find the whole article here:
http://www.drdobbs.com/embedded-systems/assembly-language-control-flow-graphing/184410664
Amazing thing is, the whole workflow-analyzer is just a handful of code, just a few lines. (written 20 yrs ago lol).
It works out of the box on any windows/linux/mac and with a little tweaking you can discover so many things.
Last edited by olk93; 03-17-2017 at 06:18 AM.
Just wondering if this went anywhere? Still have a big NSRT4 4spd auto project on the backburner so curious if any progress?
Robert Mclellan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
8 valve, No Nitrous!
New clutch combo is the SH!T!
I wish..... id love a 2.4 with a hard hitting A604 with AWD in my reliant.
Brian
Originally Posted by turbovanman
Nope. To me, any progress here is about 20 YEARS too late. I think it's cool. It would have been nice to have back in the day, but anymore...not worth the effort.
My experience isn't that people are going away from these cars, it's that the ones emerging are becoming more serious.
Robert Mclellan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
8 valve, No Nitrous!
New clutch combo is the SH!T!
To a point, yes. However, most are engine swapping to the 2.4 (and for very good reasons), and there's options for strong manual and dog box transmissions. The OD in the A604 can't be used with any sort of real power, and can't be upgraded. Good luck finding true upgrade parts for it. I love the transmission, don't get me wrong. In many ways it is physically better than the A413/670. It also is better than almost any of the other FWD automatic transmissions out there. The opportunities to have things like paddle shifters and different shift programs are certainly there, but there is NO demand, and even if you could produce a product that enabled these things to be reality...the fact of the matter is the platform is dead. These conversations have been going on for literally 20+ years (and I've been part of a lot of them within this community). *IF* it ever does happen, it will be by a couple of people super dedicated to it, just to prove a point. Back when a few of the SRT4 guys ran it with that one aftermarket controller it seemed like it MIGHT go somewhere, but ultimately it died. If it were going to happen...that's when it would have. With PROFWD making a "comeback", *maybe* someone will try again, but the majority of those setups go to a longitudinal engine placement with a 'Glide or A340 (Toyota). Both proven platforms that are "reliable" and well known. It would make NO sense to use the A604 or the A606(42LE), or even the later 6-speed versions (62TE). Even going to AWD doesn't make sense to use them because the PTU can be adapted fairly easily to the manual transmission cases.
Having said all that, I'd still LOVE to see it, but I truly, honestly believe that at this point, if it hasn't happened, it isn't going to. It's time to lay it to rest. The advantages to not outweigh the cost of development.
While I fully appreciate what you're saying, I believe the Big picture in all of this is being missed, somewhat like how it was missed when we developed the NSRT4 ACT clutch for our 8v's. The greatest benefit was Not that 9/ 10 sec manual's could have a bullet proof clutch. It was actually that 99% of the community could run an organic stock engaging set-up that could handle 400+WTQ!
I think this is the same deal. We will develop this if nec when we get around to it because it fits the build parameters the owner is looking for, but I was hopeful we could rather help/ test the limits of what was being developed here instead.
This is the same to me as all of the late Muscle cars going to OD auto's these days to get the best of both worlds. This gets developed and proven in a 9 sec+ street/ strip car and (should) instantly become the Go To for 99% who are never going to push that kind of power but just want reliable best of both worlds flexibility.
Robert Mclellan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
8 valve, No Nitrous!
New clutch combo is the SH!T!
I wish you the best of luck.
anything can be upgraded. anything.
it just hinges on the eagerness of those involved and how resourceful they are.
if everyone gave up so easily, we wouldnt have flashable ECU's and MPSciLink's or even running cars.
with that kind of attitude, why are you still working on your cars? its time to lay them to rest because they are too old and parts are getting hard to find. f it....
its true that those with 68hc11 reverse engineering background are few and far between but there are still some out there. they just need to be found and poked and prodded.
the code is available. the patent docs are available. 68hc11 disassemblers are available.
it just takes one person with a older a604 vehicle and the willingness to help do the testing and one person with some code experience to make this happen.
are you that person with a a604 car?
Brian
Originally Posted by turbovanman
Yes, things *can* be upgraded. Again, cost/effort versus benefit.
I am making basically *1* more go with the 2.2/2.5, and I still want to build a 3.0 V6, but after that...I am done with these cars as far as trying to make them fast. It's not worth it. There are better platforms with more support with better results for less money and effort. I love these cars. I will ALWAYS have at least *1* in my garage as long as I can afford to. However, as much as the tight knit community is nice in some ways, it also has killed this platform.
As for upgrading the A604...you aren't technically wrong, but you also have to take into account that while testing stuff out, you stand a VERY good chance of grenading the entire transmission. Now you have to yank it out of the car, rebuild it, spend money on hard parts that inevitably will break...this goes back to my very first statement in this reply. Cost versus benefit. MAYBE you get lucky and don't ruin a transmission while figuring out how to alter the shift schedules, but my bet is that at LEAST 1 spits its guts due to a software flub. Unlike engines that you can kinda figure out that something isn't right before it blows chunks, with a transmission...it's all over in a blink of an eye.
Honestly, the ONLY thing holding back a totally manual shift box that just SLAMS it in gear is the 2-1 downshift. It requires a specific sequence of applying the solenoids to "unlock" 1st in the valve body (this is from memory, and reading the manuals and patents). So, put a scope on the solenoid pack, data log the inputs, use an Arduino as an interpreter, and run that thing off some switches. When 1st is selected, the Arduino sends the sequence out...badda-bing...A604 controller. People have proven that the solenoids can operate at 100% DC without letting the smoke out over night...so in a race type application it's no big deal. Now, the question is, can the hard parts in the transmission handle it, and how do you compensate for apply overlap?
Yes i know that the shift timing is CRITICAL. thats why the controllers had adaptives to dial in the shift over time and keep it shifting the same way... at least till the CVI reaches their limit.
I would want to define the tables and figure out what they do just to try to make the shift faster.
The arduino deal would only work perfectly for that transmission that was datalogged to create the protocol and only until the clutches wore a little bit.
applied to another gearbox with different wear, the timing would need to be tweaked. the adaptives are imperative which is why I would prefer hacking the TCC.
RacerStev proved that gears 1-3 of the transmission could handle 650-700hp bone stock with the aftermarket controller running the show.
Brian
Originally Posted by turbovanman
I totally hear you and agree with most of what you're saying. Having said that, I get more looks now cruising in my wifes 12 sec Spirit then any of the NSRT4's I drove! Not to mention the looks on the faces of people who have those "other Easier to build platforms" when they think they have something and there you are, Right beside them or even a few steps ahead
Also should mention, there are still some of us out there with a plethora of parts that have the capability of recovering quickly and multiple times if something goes wrong. Which is why I was looking into this in the first place. We are within a year of that build but I can test anything in the near future in preparation.
I followed Steve through all of that and have all of his notes as well as any other info I could gather when I purchased the very transmission you are speaking of. The bummer is he was supposed to build himself another one and Pelequin screwed him on the LSD and that was the end of that
So when I struck the deal for the trans I felt Great! After realizing it could have potentially lead to the demise of things moving forward, Not so much.......
Robert Mclellan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
8 valve, No Nitrous!
New clutch combo is the SH!T!
Racer Steve! I couldn't remember his name! Thank you!
So, again my memory might be rusty here, but the way I remember the shift schedules being set up is that it's based on the input and output speed sensors and the time it take to achieve a certain speed differential between them based on rpm, load, and throttle position. So basically the TCC pulses the solenoids such that it achieves the rpm differential in a set amount of time.
The CVI's are based on known values of flow for given pressures and it calculates how much fluid is needed to achieve a shift based on that. Obviously we all know if it goes outside that range it goes into limp mode.
I wasn't talking about the Arduino actually controlling ALL of the shifting, JUST the 2-1 downshift sequence. The rest of it would be a "hard shift". If I remember the way the shifting works, 1-2 shift can be just an "on/off" type thing as the clutches are actuated by the same piston. The 2-3 shift might be more tricky. OD can't be used for ANY power, so it would be locked out in cases of boost, etc. TCC could be hard wired or done with an accelerometer control.
As for the guts holding power, yeah, it did hold power. My obvious question is, but for how long? We never really got to see what would truly be tough enough. The Mitsubishi guys can get a few passes out of their autos before they have to swap it out and rebuild it.
The "awe" factor is cool. I just am now to the point that I want to enjoy my cars and not worry about breaking them or working on them all of the time. I don't NEED to be "the fastest" because it's just not going to happen...and to keep up with quick modern cars is pushing these platforms fairly hard nowadays. When most "fast" cars were within bolt-on and tuning range for these...it was cool. Now "fast" cars are well into needing a cage territory (whether they run one or not). It's hard to have real "fun" with that sort of power and speed on the road because in a blink of an eye you are in "going to prison" territory, and if you screw up you are in "you are going to die" territory. No thanks. I guess I've grown up (not knocking anyone, please don't take it that way).
Don't get me wrong, I still have some "insane" goals I want to pull off just because they have been goals of mine since I started driving. And I will build one of my cars to attain one of those goals, and probably have to build a whole tube-frame something or another to achieve the other one. Neither of those include using the A604, and couldn't due to its limitations, especially the OD.
Steve had like 40 passes on the gearbox at that power with no signs of stress.
I dont care if i have the fastest car in the world cause that's impossible. I just like ripping around cause its fun and I like my car.
I also like hot rodding everything. If its mine and its not hot-rodded in some way, it wont stay that way. I even like hot rodding things that know-it-all-morons on the internet say "why would you waste your time hot rodding that turd.... you could buy X and it would be faster and easier".
Brian
Originally Posted by turbovanman
I should also mention that Steve felt the 4 spds have a better selection of FD/ Trans gear options, and that the mechanical Efficiency of the combo he was running could not be matched with a 3 spd. I keep hearing 4th gear being brought up as the weak link. 4th gear is a Cruising gear, nothing more. Strip = 1/2/3 Only
Robert Mclellan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
8 valve, No Nitrous!
New clutch combo is the SH!T!
You sure he had *40* passes? I thought it was like, 4 real passes before a mistake ended it all? It's been years, and I admit I haven't gone back to read the history.
Yes, the 604/41TE has a much larger selection of FD and transfer ratios versus the 413/670/31TH.
I keep bringing up 4th because depending on the gearing and tires, 3rd won't get you much past 120mph without revving higher than most people currently do with our platforms. Not saying neither you nor Brian wouldn't remedy that, just stating a common issue. Now, how many would be trapping more than 120? Dunno, honestly.
Also, I bring up 4th because without locking it out, you end up with a grenaded transmission like Steve did. Pretty much rules out highway pulls in "Mexico"...for those that do that sort of thing.
I thought the number was 37.... but it has been years.
Brian
Originally Posted by turbovanman
i was wrong... it was 15 passes.
Brian
Originally Posted by turbovanman