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Thread: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

  1. #101
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    the ultimate downfall of the 604/41TE in a high horsepower application is the slow speed of clutch engagement/disengagement during shifts when the trans controller is calibrated for factory specs (ie smooth, slow shifting) but the engine is making much more power.

    the clutches slip alot then and the trans burns up.

    in other words, lots of HP and slow shifts = ruined transmission.

    i would think the primary overall goal of reverse engineering the TCU would be tuning the shift speed to be much faster so the trans would last under high boost/high torque in 1-3 gears.

    does that make sense? if not i can take a different route to explain it.

    Brian
    Well, situational shift control would be it. Don't ruin the transmission any more than required for street driving. Racer Steve made some valve body adjustments. Automatic 4th gear lockout too. Signal output to cut power on shift too!
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  2. #102
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Well, situational shift control would be it. Don't ruin the transmission any more than required for street driving. Racer Steve made some valve body adjustments. Automatic 4th gear lockout too. Signal output to cut power on shift too!
    yeah he made valve body adjustments that TCM had to reprogram into their shift controller to get the shift timing right again.

    all of the features would be wasted time if shift speed cant be addressed.

    after that, then add all kinds of features.... torque management on the shift, shift paddles, 4th gear lockout, boost based shift speed (high boost, hammer the shift as fast as possible) etc.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  3. #103
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    In search of illustrating a workflow i stumbled upon a nice nifty tool on dr. dobbs site.

    Let me show you

    Code:
    ;--------------------------------
    ; bubble sort routine for Mitsubishi 740 series microprocessor
    ; Entry: list = zero page pointer to unordered list of integers
    ;              the first element in the list is the length
    ; Exit: the list is sorted
    ;--------------------------------
    sort:   ldx #0                  ; clear the "swapped" flag
            lda (list,x)            ; fetch length
            tay                     ; y = length of list
    loop    lda (list),y            ; a = list[y]
            dey                     ; decrement index v'ble
            beq finish              ; skip out if done with list
            cmp (list),y            ; is list[y] > list[y-1] ?
            bcs loop                ; if so, keep going
            tax                     ; save list[y] in x reg
            lda (list),y            ; fetch the other list element
            iny                     ; increment pointer
            sta (list),y            ; store the larger element
            txa                     ; remember the smaller one
            dey                     ; decrement pointer again
            sta (list),y            ; store that element
            ldx #1                  ; set the "swapped" flag
            bra loop                ; loop back
    finish  txa                     ; were any elements exchanged?
            bne sort                ; if so, go through the list again
            rts                     ; otherwise we're done
    This is an example assembler code which sorts some data




    This is the workflow, going from top to bottom.
    On the right side you see the branches and jumps towards higher adresses
    and on the left side you see jumps back to lower adresses.

    And now lets have a look inside the TCM eprom



    Now lets zoom a little bit ...



    The more you zoom into the more details you can see from the workflow.
    You can easily spot out regions of interest.

    The software is written in pearl and you find the whole article here:
    http://www.drdobbs.com/embedded-systems/assembly-language-control-flow-graphing/184410664

    Amazing thing is, the whole workflow-analyzer is just a handful of code, just a few lines. (written 20 yrs ago lol).
    It works out of the box on any windows/linux/mac and with a little tweaking you can discover so many things.
    Last edited by olk93; 03-17-2017 at 06:18 AM.

  4. #104
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Just wondering if this went anywhere? Still have a big NSRT4 4spd auto project on the backburner so curious if any progress?

    Robert Mclellan
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  5. #105
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I wish..... id love a 2.4 with a hard hitting A604 with AWD in my reliant.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  6. #106
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Nope. To me, any progress here is about 20 YEARS too late. I think it's cool. It would have been nice to have back in the day, but anymore...not worth the effort.

  7. #107
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    My experience isn't that people are going away from these cars, it's that the ones emerging are becoming more serious.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
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    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  8. #108
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    My experience isn't that people are going away from these cars, it's that the ones emerging are becoming more serious.
    To a point, yes. However, most are engine swapping to the 2.4 (and for very good reasons), and there's options for strong manual and dog box transmissions. The OD in the A604 can't be used with any sort of real power, and can't be upgraded. Good luck finding true upgrade parts for it. I love the transmission, don't get me wrong. In many ways it is physically better than the A413/670. It also is better than almost any of the other FWD automatic transmissions out there. The opportunities to have things like paddle shifters and different shift programs are certainly there, but there is NO demand, and even if you could produce a product that enabled these things to be reality...the fact of the matter is the platform is dead. These conversations have been going on for literally 20+ years (and I've been part of a lot of them within this community). *IF* it ever does happen, it will be by a couple of people super dedicated to it, just to prove a point. Back when a few of the SRT4 guys ran it with that one aftermarket controller it seemed like it MIGHT go somewhere, but ultimately it died. If it were going to happen...that's when it would have. With PROFWD making a "comeback", *maybe* someone will try again, but the majority of those setups go to a longitudinal engine placement with a 'Glide or A340 (Toyota). Both proven platforms that are "reliable" and well known. It would make NO sense to use the A604 or the A606(42LE), or even the later 6-speed versions (62TE). Even going to AWD doesn't make sense to use them because the PTU can be adapted fairly easily to the manual transmission cases.

    Having said all that, I'd still LOVE to see it, but I truly, honestly believe that at this point, if it hasn't happened, it isn't going to. It's time to lay it to rest. The advantages to not outweigh the cost of development.

  9. #109
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    While I fully appreciate what you're saying, I believe the Big picture in all of this is being missed, somewhat like how it was missed when we developed the NSRT4 ACT clutch for our 8v's. The greatest benefit was Not that 9/ 10 sec manual's could have a bullet proof clutch. It was actually that 99% of the community could run an organic stock engaging set-up that could handle 400+WTQ!

    I think this is the same deal. We will develop this if nec when we get around to it because it fits the build parameters the owner is looking for, but I was hopeful we could rather help/ test the limits of what was being developed here instead.

    This is the same to me as all of the late Muscle cars going to OD auto's these days to get the best of both worlds. This gets developed and proven in a 9 sec+ street/ strip car and (should) instantly become the Go To for 99% who are never going to push that kind of power but just want reliable best of both worlds flexibility.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  10. #110
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I wish you the best of luck.

  11. #111
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    can't be upgraded.
    anything can be upgraded. anything.

    it just hinges on the eagerness of those involved and how resourceful they are.

    if everyone gave up so easily, we wouldnt have flashable ECU's and MPSciLink's or even running cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    It's time to lay it to rest.
    with that kind of attitude, why are you still working on your cars? its time to lay them to rest because they are too old and parts are getting hard to find. f it....


    its true that those with 68hc11 reverse engineering background are few and far between but there are still some out there. they just need to be found and poked and prodded.

    the code is available. the patent docs are available. 68hc11 disassemblers are available.

    it just takes one person with a older a604 vehicle and the willingness to help do the testing and one person with some code experience to make this happen.

    are you that person with a a604 car?

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  12. #112
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    anything can be upgraded. anything.

    it just hinges on the eagerness of those involved and how resourceful they are.

    if everyone gave up so easily, we wouldnt have flashable ECU's and MPSciLink's or even running cars.



    with that kind of attitude, why are you still working on your cars? its time to lay them to rest because they are too old and parts are getting hard to find. f it....


    its true that those with 68hc11 reverse engineering background are few and far between but there are still some out there. they just need to be found and poked and prodded.

    the code is available. the patent docs are available. 68hc11 disassemblers are available.

    it just takes one person with a older a604 vehicle and the willingness to help do the testing and one person with some code experience to make this happen.

    are you that person with a a604 car?

    Brian
    Yes, things *can* be upgraded. Again, cost/effort versus benefit.

    I am making basically *1* more go with the 2.2/2.5, and I still want to build a 3.0 V6, but after that...I am done with these cars as far as trying to make them fast. It's not worth it. There are better platforms with more support with better results for less money and effort. I love these cars. I will ALWAYS have at least *1* in my garage as long as I can afford to. However, as much as the tight knit community is nice in some ways, it also has killed this platform.

    As for upgrading the A604...you aren't technically wrong, but you also have to take into account that while testing stuff out, you stand a VERY good chance of grenading the entire transmission. Now you have to yank it out of the car, rebuild it, spend money on hard parts that inevitably will break...this goes back to my very first statement in this reply. Cost versus benefit. MAYBE you get lucky and don't ruin a transmission while figuring out how to alter the shift schedules, but my bet is that at LEAST 1 spits its guts due to a software flub. Unlike engines that you can kinda figure out that something isn't right before it blows chunks, with a transmission...it's all over in a blink of an eye.

    Honestly, the ONLY thing holding back a totally manual shift box that just SLAMS it in gear is the 2-1 downshift. It requires a specific sequence of applying the solenoids to "unlock" 1st in the valve body (this is from memory, and reading the manuals and patents). So, put a scope on the solenoid pack, data log the inputs, use an Arduino as an interpreter, and run that thing off some switches. When 1st is selected, the Arduino sends the sequence out...badda-bing...A604 controller. People have proven that the solenoids can operate at 100% DC without letting the smoke out over night...so in a race type application it's no big deal. Now, the question is, can the hard parts in the transmission handle it, and how do you compensate for apply overlap?

  13. #113
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    Yes, things *can* be upgraded. Again, cost/effort versus benefit.

    I am making basically *1* more go with the 2.2/2.5, and I still want to build a 3.0 V6, but after that...I am done with these cars as far as trying to make them fast. It's not worth it. There are better platforms with more support with better results for less money and effort. I love these cars. I will ALWAYS have at least *1* in my garage as long as I can afford to. However, as much as the tight knit community is nice in some ways, it also has killed this platform.

    As for upgrading the A604...you aren't technically wrong, but you also have to take into account that while testing stuff out, you stand a VERY good chance of grenading the entire transmission. Now you have to yank it out of the car, rebuild it, spend money on hard parts that inevitably will break...this goes back to my very first statement in this reply. Cost versus benefit. MAYBE you get lucky and don't ruin a transmission while figuring out how to alter the shift schedules, but my bet is that at LEAST 1 spits its guts due to a software flub. Unlike engines that you can kinda figure out that something isn't right before it blows chunks, with a transmission...it's all over in a blink of an eye.

    Honestly, the ONLY thing holding back a totally manual shift box that just SLAMS it in gear is the 2-1 downshift. It requires a specific sequence of applying the solenoids to "unlock" 1st in the valve body (this is from memory, and reading the manuals and patents). So, put a scope on the solenoid pack, data log the inputs, use an Arduino as an interpreter, and run that thing off some switches. When 1st is selected, the Arduino sends the sequence out...badda-bing...A604 controller. People have proven that the solenoids can operate at 100% DC without letting the smoke out over night...so in a race type application it's no big deal. Now, the question is, can the hard parts in the transmission handle it, and how do you compensate for apply overlap?
    Yes i know that the shift timing is CRITICAL. thats why the controllers had adaptives to dial in the shift over time and keep it shifting the same way... at least till the CVI reaches their limit.

    I would want to define the tables and figure out what they do just to try to make the shift faster.

    The arduino deal would only work perfectly for that transmission that was datalogged to create the protocol and only until the clutches wore a little bit.

    applied to another gearbox with different wear, the timing would need to be tweaked. the adaptives are imperative which is why I would prefer hacking the TCC.

    RacerStev proved that gears 1-3 of the transmission could handle 650-700hp bone stock with the aftermarket controller running the show.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  14. #114
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    Yes, things *can* be upgraded. Again, cost/effort versus benefit.

    I am making basically *1* more go with the 2.2/2.5, and I still want to build a 3.0 V6, but after that...I am done with these cars as far as trying to make them fast. It's not worth it. There are better platforms with more support with better results for less money and effort. I love these cars. I will ALWAYS have at least *1* in my garage as long as I can afford to. However, as much as the tight knit community is nice in some ways, it also has killed this platform.

    As for upgrading the A604...you aren't technically wrong, but you also have to take into account that while testing stuff out, you stand a VERY good chance of grenading the entire transmission. Now you have to yank it out of the car, rebuild it, spend money on hard parts that inevitably will break...this goes back to my very first statement in this reply. Cost versus benefit. MAYBE you get lucky and don't ruin a transmission while figuring out how to alter the shift schedules, but my bet is that at LEAST 1 spits its guts due to a software flub. Unlike engines that you can kinda figure out that something isn't right before it blows chunks, with a transmission...it's all over in a blink of an eye.

    Honestly, the ONLY thing holding back a totally manual shift box that just SLAMS it in gear is the 2-1 downshift. It requires a specific sequence of applying the solenoids to "unlock" 1st in the valve body (this is from memory, and reading the manuals and patents). So, put a scope on the solenoid pack, data log the inputs, use an Arduino as an interpreter, and run that thing off some switches. When 1st is selected, the Arduino sends the sequence out...badda-bing...A604 controller. People have proven that the solenoids can operate at 100% DC without letting the smoke out over night...so in a race type application it's no big deal. Now, the question is, can the hard parts in the transmission handle it, and how do you compensate for apply overlap?
    I totally hear you and agree with most of what you're saying. Having said that, I get more looks now cruising in my wifes 12 sec Spirit then any of the NSRT4's I drove! Not to mention the looks on the faces of people who have those "other Easier to build platforms" when they think they have something and there you are, Right beside them or even a few steps ahead

    Also should mention, there are still some of us out there with a plethora of parts that have the capability of recovering quickly and multiple times if something goes wrong. Which is why I was looking into this in the first place. We are within a year of that build but I can test anything in the near future in preparation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    Yes i know that the shift timing is CRITICAL. thats why the controllers had adaptives to dial in the shift over time and keep it shifting the same way... at least till the CVI reaches their limit.

    I would want to define the tables and figure out what they do just to try to make the shift faster.

    The arduino deal would only work perfectly for that transmission that was datalogged to create the protocol and only until the clutches wore a little bit.

    applied to another gearbox with different wear, the timing would need to be tweaked. the adaptives are imperative which is why I would prefer hacking the TCC.

    RacerStev proved that gears 1-3 of the transmission could handle 650-700hp bone stock with the aftermarket controller running the show.

    Brian
    I followed Steve through all of that and have all of his notes as well as any other info I could gather when I purchased the very transmission you are speaking of. The bummer is he was supposed to build himself another one and Pelequin screwed him on the LSD and that was the end of that

    So when I struck the deal for the trans I felt Great! After realizing it could have potentially lead to the demise of things moving forward, Not so much.......

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  15. #115
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    Yes i know that the shift timing is CRITICAL. thats why the controllers had adaptives to dial in the shift over time and keep it shifting the same way... at least till the CVI reaches their limit.

    I would want to define the tables and figure out what they do just to try to make the shift faster.

    The arduino deal would only work perfectly for that transmission that was datalogged to create the protocol and only until the clutches wore a little bit.

    applied to another gearbox with different wear, the timing would need to be tweaked. the adaptives are imperative which is why I would prefer hacking the TCC.

    RacerStev proved that gears 1-3 of the transmission could handle 650-700hp bone stock with the aftermarket controller running the show.

    Brian
    Racer Steve! I couldn't remember his name! Thank you!

    So, again my memory might be rusty here, but the way I remember the shift schedules being set up is that it's based on the input and output speed sensors and the time it take to achieve a certain speed differential between them based on rpm, load, and throttle position. So basically the TCC pulses the solenoids such that it achieves the rpm differential in a set amount of time.

    The CVI's are based on known values of flow for given pressures and it calculates how much fluid is needed to achieve a shift based on that. Obviously we all know if it goes outside that range it goes into limp mode.

    I wasn't talking about the Arduino actually controlling ALL of the shifting, JUST the 2-1 downshift sequence. The rest of it would be a "hard shift". If I remember the way the shifting works, 1-2 shift can be just an "on/off" type thing as the clutches are actuated by the same piston. The 2-3 shift might be more tricky. OD can't be used for ANY power, so it would be locked out in cases of boost, etc. TCC could be hard wired or done with an accelerometer control.

    As for the guts holding power, yeah, it did hold power. My obvious question is, but for how long? We never really got to see what would truly be tough enough. The Mitsubishi guys can get a few passes out of their autos before they have to swap it out and rebuild it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    I totally hear you and agree with most of what you're saying. Having said that, I get more looks now cruising in my wifes 12 sec Spirit then any of the NSRT4's I drove! Not to mention the looks on the faces of people who have those "other Easier to build platforms" when they think they have something and there you are, Right beside them or even a few steps ahead

    Also should mention, there are still some of us out there with a plethora of parts that have the capability of recovering quickly and multiple times if something goes wrong. Which is why I was looking into this in the first place. We are within a year of that build but I can test anything in the near future in preparation.

    I followed Steve through all of that and have all of his notes as well as any other info I could gather when I purchased the very transmission you are speaking of. The bummer is he was supposed to build himself another one and Pelequin screwed him on the LSD and that was the end of that

    So when I struck the deal for the trans I felt Great! After realizing it could have potentially lead to the demise of things moving forward, Not so much.......
    The "awe" factor is cool. I just am now to the point that I want to enjoy my cars and not worry about breaking them or working on them all of the time. I don't NEED to be "the fastest" because it's just not going to happen...and to keep up with quick modern cars is pushing these platforms fairly hard nowadays. When most "fast" cars were within bolt-on and tuning range for these...it was cool. Now "fast" cars are well into needing a cage territory (whether they run one or not). It's hard to have real "fun" with that sort of power and speed on the road because in a blink of an eye you are in "going to prison" territory, and if you screw up you are in "you are going to die" territory. No thanks. I guess I've grown up (not knocking anyone, please don't take it that way).

    Don't get me wrong, I still have some "insane" goals I want to pull off just because they have been goals of mine since I started driving. And I will build one of my cars to attain one of those goals, and probably have to build a whole tube-frame something or another to achieve the other one. Neither of those include using the A604, and couldn't due to its limitations, especially the OD.

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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Steve had like 40 passes on the gearbox at that power with no signs of stress.

    I dont care if i have the fastest car in the world cause that's impossible. I just like ripping around cause its fun and I like my car.

    I also like hot rodding everything. If its mine and its not hot-rodded in some way, it wont stay that way. I even like hot rodding things that know-it-all-morons on the internet say "why would you waste your time hot rodding that turd.... you could buy X and it would be faster and easier".

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  17. #117
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I should also mention that Steve felt the 4 spds have a better selection of FD/ Trans gear options, and that the mechanical Efficiency of the combo he was running could not be matched with a 3 spd. I keep hearing 4th gear being brought up as the weak link. 4th gear is a Cruising gear, nothing more. Strip = 1/2/3 Only

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  18. #118
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    You sure he had *40* passes? I thought it was like, 4 real passes before a mistake ended it all? It's been years, and I admit I haven't gone back to read the history.

    Yes, the 604/41TE has a much larger selection of FD and transfer ratios versus the 413/670/31TH.

    I keep bringing up 4th because depending on the gearing and tires, 3rd won't get you much past 120mph without revving higher than most people currently do with our platforms. Not saying neither you nor Brian wouldn't remedy that, just stating a common issue. Now, how many would be trapping more than 120? Dunno, honestly.

    Also, I bring up 4th because without locking it out, you end up with a grenaded transmission like Steve did. Pretty much rules out highway pulls in "Mexico"...for those that do that sort of thing.

  19. #119
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I thought the number was 37.... but it has been years.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  20. #120
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    i was wrong... it was 15 passes.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

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