MeanMini 's cooling system anomaly: coolant push to overflow

[Wastelands Warrior]

Thanks for all the info, Wayne.
I wonder if CSR would be willing to "fix" the impeller?

[wheming]

Thanks for all the info, Wayne.
I wonder if CSR would be willing to "fix" the impeller?

I have not tried to talk to them about it other than when i emailed them. The tech guy seemed nice, and is a racer himself. His old car was that '57 Fury "Christine"
A fix would also require the motor to turn in the opposite direction, which i don't know if you can just switch polarity. And then the threads holding the impellar would need be cut different too.
I guess we would get a replay of there last communicated statement.

I wonder how many folks would be interested in a better electric pump option if one were available. Some folks have a new CSR pump sitting around, waiting to be used. I don't know if they would want to buy another electric pump.

I wonder if we could get a replacement impellar made from someone with a CNC, that could just do a mirror of the impellar, so the blades are in the proper direction.
We would need a way to lock the impellar to the shaft, and if the motor is ok turning opposite, we vould at least render these more useful.

[Wastelands Warrior]

I have not tried to talk to them about it other than when i emailed them. The tech guy seemed nice, and is a racer himself. His old car was that '57 Fury "Christine"
A fix would also require the motor to turn in the opposite direction, which i don't know if you can just switch polarity. And then the threads holding the impellar would need be cut different too.
I guess we would get a replay of there last communicated statement.

I wonder how many folks would be interested in a better electric pump option if one were available. Some folks have a new CSR pump sitting around, waiting to be used. I don't know if they would want to buy another electric pump.

I wonder if we could get a replacement impellar made from someone with a CNC, that could just do a mirror of the impellar, so the blades are in the proper direction.
We would need a way to lock the impellar to the shaft, and if the motor is ok turning opposite, we vould at least render these more useful.

For the money that these cost it would suck to not have one that is working up to proper levels.

[wheming]

For the money that these cost it would suck to not have one that is working up to proper levels.

I know. It was a big disappointment.
Worse is someone else might have bought one after i did, when i announced they still had some left.

[Wastelands Warrior]

I know. It was a big disappointment.
Worse is someone else might have bought one after i did, when i announced they still had some left.

If I didn't have Mr Intermediate Shaft go bye bye I was going to pick one up. I'm a sucker for "cool" parts, But my budget didn't allow the electric pump to be part of my repair fund.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

bought mine a couple of years ago

I wonder if the fix is in modding the o-e impeller to fit the csr pump ?

the hole on the stock one looks smaller so it might be doable if made larger to fit the other pump

[Reaper1]

I don't know if I've posted this before or not, but the impeller blade pitch really won't affect how the pump works (moves the volume of coolant). As long as it is turning the correct direction, it will move the coolant. What the blade pitch WILL affect is cavitation within the pump. These aren't pressure pumps (although pressure builds in the system due to inherent restrictions built in on purpose)...more accurately, they aren't designed to actually pressurize the system. They only need to move the volume of coolant through the system.

I'm sure that we've all heard the Ed Peters water pump impeller trick (taking off half of the blades). Part of the reason was to reduce cavitation. Cavitation will happen in the pump at the ends of the blades and on the back side of the blades as the exit velocity can be high enough to reduce the local pressure such that the coolant boils (cavitates) and on the back side because that is inherently a low pressure area due to fluid dynamics. So, changing the pitch of the blades can reduce or even eliminate this issue.

I will say that it's kind of mind boggling how it works when it doesn't look like it should, but I promise...it does. What helped make it hit home for me was seeing a plexiglass fluid pump system that its sole purpose was to demonstrate cavitation. Once I saw that, it made a LOT more sense!

[wheming]

I understand what you are saying, but the impellar shape and the rotational direction both matter. The impellar needs to be pitched properly to be efficient. However, even though the CSR pump is not designed properly, it does still flow. That doesn't make it good. Here is a pump picture i just took at work. We are in the middle of passivating some of our high purity water systems.
You can see the pump casing just to the right, and ifthe pic was better you'd see how the pump dischage is shsped at a 45° from what would be the right side as you look intothe pump suction. The blades sling water out into the volute of the pump in a counterclockwise rotation as you look into the pump suction. Notice the was the impellar is shaped. The shape contributes to this slinging and direction.

The CSR pump is flighting the pump housing shape, but it still pumps. You can look at the impellar and see it was designed for the early pump housing. We would get better flow from that product if the impellar was a mirror image (blades pitched opposite, and motor turns in opposite direction).
If CSR had made this waterpump plate for the early pump, they would actually have a decent product. Someone in their design engineering group must have got their information wrong.

If anyone was still interested in using an electric water pump, i think we can design a better setup with the ideas i previously mentioned. We just need someone to cut some pump plates. When i have some time I'll order a mechanical pump replacement for the modular ford v8, so i can look at some dimensions. Only problem is i do not have a spare common block water pump housing for test fitting/measuring! I think i threw away the spare one i had after getting the two cars put back together.
I looked into trying out this electric pump due to the issues with overpressurizing the upper tank at high rpm. Once i get a radiator that can handle those conditions, I'll be going back to a mechanical pump. Unless we develop a more robust and easier to replace electric pump option.

[Force Fed Mopar]

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...sp?RecID=12773

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.jegs.com/i/Meziere/680/WP...ybwRoCNfXw_wcB

[wheming]

Double post. Lost my reply to you Rob.

[Reaper1]

I've heard both good and bad things about the Davies Craig pumps. The bad stuff is kinda hard to ignore. The good stuff shows how awesome the idea is. Just that little word of caution.

I've been eyeballing electric water pumps for a few years now. I'm thinking something like that inline Mezeir actually might be the better way to go...even though kind of pricey.

[wheming]

I don't like the sound of an all nylon water pump and housing. I'm trying to get away from plastic tank radiator, i don't want to add a plastic water pump!

I like the idea of using the same design as a csr, the machined plate with the pump using the stock housing, but with a serviceable pump cartridge. We probably need something less than the 300 series Meziere modular ford at 55gpm. But there are others similar around 40gpm from Jegs or Summit. And since the impellars aren't designed fr our housings, we might not get full rated flow anyway. (Our impellar blades actually are triangular since the suction is slightly cone shaped. For the common block at least.)

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

tht's why I suggested modding the o-e impeller to fit the csr pump - if doable

it looks like the hole in the center of the stock one is smaller than the csr's so it might be an idea
modding the old impeller would take a lot less effort than making an entrely new one
though it may take more than just the center hole modded as the impeller thickness might beome an issue once on the csr shaft

[wheming]

tht's why I suggested modding the o-e impeller to fit the csr pump - if doable

it looks like the hole in the center of the stock one is smaller than the csr's so it might be an idea
modding the old impeller would take a lot less effort than making an entrely new one
though it may take more than just the center hole modded as the impeller thickness might beome an issue once on the csr shaft

The shape of the oe impellar contributes to the cavitation that occurs at high pump speeds. If it had a full back plate to the impellar that would help. If anything, having a new impellar made for the csr pump would be better than using a modified oe impellar to fit the csr. But, you'd still have to reverse the motor rotation either way.
And again, the csr impellar is attached using threads that tighten with motor rotation. Reversing the motor rotation would try to loosen the impellar from the shaft when it starts.

[acannell]

At least it seems like everything is on the table here as far as new part design. A new impeller, new impeller mounting plate, etc.. should be straightforward to model and machine with any desired changes. But I've got to wonder if the issue is really the pump. Arent there alot of very high power engines with no cooling issues running stock pumps?

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

the thread shouldn't be a big issue - loctight , a hit with a punch to stake it or a little zap with a stick welder - any one should hold

I never had cooling isues with any of my 2.2 turbo motors so the reverse rotation isn't something I'd miss , in fact I still need the rear housing as I don't even have one yet

[wheming]

Finally have some further investigative information to share.
Brian was able to finally see a positive read on his block tester, checking for the presence of combustion gas in the coolant. The compression test didn't really show anything out of normal as the occurance of the coolant push was only prominent at higher boost levels.
We both had pretty much agreed that was the most likely cause, but not being able to get a positive read on the block tester was a bit puzzling.

After it was confirmed, the cylinder head was removed, and further signs became evident.
The pics are below.
The combustion gases were being pushed out along the back of the block. As mentioned in the project log thread, Brian found a few headstuds were not at the proper torque (or hadn't kept the proper torque). I had checked torque at least twice during all this troubleshooting and found at least a couple that moved just slightly also.

At least this part of the puzzle is solved. Now we will use a new Cometic and resurface things and hope we can have this behind us.

[Wastelands Warrior]

Glad to see you have solved your mystery, Wayne.

[wheming]

Glad to see you have solved your mystery, Wayne.

Really anxious now to see what the power difference might be with a good seal at these increased boost levels.
Hopefully will be dialed back in for Cecil at the end of Oct.

[Wastelands Warrior]

Cool. Maybe I'll see you at Cecil.