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Thread: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

  1. #21
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    it may well resist being pushed open by the exhaust gasses better than the flaper style as it has to rotate both out of and into the exhaust flow

  2. #22
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with a butterfly valve.
    Alrighty then! All I need is a little encouragement and off I go..

    Modelling things roughly it looks like the following may actually all fit together

    ~11 degree cone off of 2.3" (stage 3" chrysler flange 0.63 turbine housing
    3.5" OD, 3.5" CLR elbow attached to cone
    ZF pump
    1.5" dia butterfly valve for wastegate
    2" wastegate piping
    stock exhaust mani
    Stock/BMF intake
    Enough room around the cone and wastegate at the swingvalve surface of the turbine housing for realistic material thicknesses/welds, etc..

    Its getting to that point where I have to start actually drawing metal around all these floating pieces...thats where the rubber meets the road and it may take me a bit to get a first draft rolling. Solidworks demands every little thing be perfect or mates start breaking left and right and things get out of control. I spent all day today trying to clean up the assembly yet still there I cant seem to get things to mate the way I want and stuff is going haywire. Par for the course. I just have to keep at it until I find the little bastard hiding in there somewhere.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post
    it may well resist being pushed open by the exhaust gasses better than the flaper style as it has to rotate both out of and into the exhaust flow
    ya know that occured to me...I think a butterfly valve de-couples the forces from the flow from the actuator completely...equal and opposite pressure on both sides of the blade pushing in opposite directions?

    would that be a big benefit? Are people having trouble with wastegate actuator spring strength at high power?

  3. #23
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    The shaft is going to have a harder time sinking heat away centrally located in the flow. Maybe search on some forums for problems end-users complain about for the electronic cut outs that use that sort of shaft. Deposits jamming it up might be a bigger problem than with the traditional style valve. The shaft will just ride on a plain bearing?

  4. #24
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    As far as angling the funnel, I mean just cutting an angle on the end of it, not actually changing the shape of the rest of it. It will oblong it slightly where it meets the flange, but I don't see it as a big deal. I agree with Johnny Dodge that there's no point letting the gases accelerate in a direction that will just have to be changed in 2 more inches. It may be slightly less than optimum, but compared to what is in use in the majority of cars right now, it's an infinitesimal compromise in the big picture of massive improvement. We've already seen the gains and the 10-second potential of cars using modified stock-style swingvalve housings that still have much uglier turbine discharges than a slightly off-axis cone. Even with the off-axis cone, this thing would still have a better flowpath than the stock Holset on Shadow's 145mph trap car. How perfect does something coming out of a turbine section that can't even flow as much as that really need to be? Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!

    What are you going to do with the wastegate flow after you create this new valve contraption?

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  5. #25
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrider View Post
    The shaft is going to have a harder time sinking heat away centrally located in the flow. Maybe search on some forums for problems end-users complain about for the electronic cut outs that use that sort of shaft. Deposits jamming it up might be a bigger problem than with the traditional style valve. The shaft will just ride on a plain bearing?
    Im thinking the bearings would be identical to the flapper valve. So a plain bearing.

    If you look at the flapper valve, basically imagine extending the shaft so its supported on two sides (although this may actually not be needed, the butterfly valve may work supported on just one side).

    Then, move the flapper puck down 1" so its centered on the shaft. As far as I can tell the shaft and the bearing(s) would be exposed to the same sort of heat and deposit stresses. Its all in the immediate vicinity of the wastegate and turbine gases so I dont see how moving things around so slightly could alter whats happening in there.

    Note the above is not the design I'm thinking of as far as how the butterfly will actually be. I'm thinking more 1.5" diameter and moved up and away from the wastegate hole.

    I'm not sure heat dissipation is really an issue is it? The steel can get hot and expand, thats okay. There should be enough clearance in the plain bearing design to accommodate unequal heating of the bearing and the shaft (equal heating would not create a problem, as they would expand equally).

  6. #26
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    As far as angling the funnel, I mean just cutting an angle on the end of it, not actually changing the shape of the rest of it. It will oblong it slightly where it meets the flange, but I don't see it as a big deal. I agree with Johnny Dodge that there's no point letting the gases accelerate in a direction that will just have to be changed in 2 more inches. It may be slightly less than optimum, but compared to what is in use in the majority of cars right now, it's an infinitesimal compromise in the big picture of massive improvement. We've already seen the gains and the 10-second potential of cars using modified stock-style swingvalve housings that still have much uglier turbine discharges than a slightly off-axis cone. Even with the off-axis cone, this thing would still have a better flowpath than the stock Holset on Shadow's 145mph trap car. How perfect does something coming out of a turbine section that can't even flow as much as that really need to be? Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!

    What are you going to do with the wastegate flow after you create this new valve contraption?
    I just feel like it would be sort of a waste of time to go to this trouble and then have the funnel be off axis and also tilted down...especially when its possible to do it right without any sort of gymnastics really. A butterfly valve for a wastegate isnt a new thing and theres really nothing about it thats unusual or risky as far as I can tell. Its just a flapper valve with the puck axis moved down an inch to pivot on the axis of the pivot arm, and possibly one more support on the other side.

    Okay so as far as wastegate gasses and where they go after the valve (flapper or butterfly), thats another story. And I wont be getting to that until I've got the valve part modelled up. I'm just making sure I can get that pipe connection for the wastegate piping in a reasonable place in space during the valve design stage and then worry about it after that.

    Most likely it will use a minimum of off-the-shelf tubing bends, probably 1.5" to 2" OD, to get to a place on the downpipe where it can reconnect with a CNC flange that gets welded to the downpipe to make that interface. Or maybe just a custom cut end and a template to cut an off-axis hole in the downpipe to allow welding the two together. Not sure how far down the downpipe is enough though. I'll try to make it as far as possible to maximize the "divorced" aspect.

    Im willing to make compromises but only if its because not doing so would require even more weirdness, but I see butterfly valves being routinely used in wastegates so its seems reasonable to use one here, especially since it keeps the design integrity, plus they are so similar to a flapper valve anyhoo.

    Also a butterfly valve opens up the possibility of much larger openings than are possible with a flapper valve. Both because they are immune to pressure (so existing wastegate actuators will work), and because they need much less space for the same opening as a flapper. Yes there is the middle cross section which is always in the way but the larger area thats possible makes up for it and then some I think. It looks like 1.5" should be no problem. Bigger may be possible as well but I'm going to shoot for 1.5" on the first round.

  7. #27
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Glad to hear you are planning on the option of divorced wastegate flow.

    Keep in mind that if you re-introduce the flow back into the turbine discharge you have to account for the fact that some kind of flexbility is always going to be a part of that downpipe area. Either with a rotating socket joint like stock (not likely!) or more likely with a flex section in the downpipe. So you either have to reintroduce the flow BEFORE the flex section, or have a separate flex section for each pipe before reintroducing further down.

    I would leave the pipes coming off this thing pretty short. As long as it's regular round pipe in a normal size, it wouldnt be hard for the end user to get their own plumbing done from there. Leaving a long pipe coming off gives the end user the unhelpful option of putting a lot of force on the piece through all that leverage if they decide they are too smart to need a flex section.

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  8. #28
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Glad to hear you are planning on the option of divorced wastegate flow.

    Keep in mind that if you re-introduce the flow back into the turbine discharge you have to account for the fact that some kind of flexbility is always going to be a part of that downpipe area. Either with a rotating socket joint like stock (not likely!) or more likely with a flex section in the downpipe. So you either have to reintroduce the flow BEFORE the flex section, or have a separate flex section for each pipe before reintroducing further down.

    I would leave the pipes coming off this thing pretty short. As long as it's regular round pipe in a normal size, it wouldnt be hard for the end user to get their own plumbing done from there. Leaving a long pipe coming off gives the end user the unhelpful option of putting a lot of force on the piece through all that leverage if they decide they are too smart to need a flex section.
    Yep divorced wastegate flow is definitely a primary goal of this design! And yes it will reconnect before the flex pipe.

    The reason I'm including the downpipe in this is that I want to minimize or eliminate any work for the end user as far as fabbing anything before the flex joint. So you just bolt this in an get divorced (or full external) wastegate flow, and a HUGE 3.5" swingvalve, with funnel at turbine exit and 3.5" all the way to the flex joint. If they are too smart for the flex joint then they can deal with the consequences lol! But I'm planning on specifying and including a flex joint so that should be no issue.

  9. #29
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    So it would be somewhat like this. Could also make a version that just dumps to atmosphere.

  10. #30
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Could even do away with the flapper and try to shoehorn something like this in there. This will probably only work for people not running power steering.

  11. #31
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    So it would be somewhat like this. Could also make a version that just dumps to atmosphere.
    Something like that yep, although where the wastegate valve goes (bottom right of pic), there will be a CNC housing for the butterfly valve. And most likely the wastegate flow will reconnect further down the downpipe than that. And there will be some way to make it relatively easy to choose divorced w/reconnect or divorced w/full external without having to do anything beyond very minimal work if any. Ideally just bolts so you can switch at will.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    Could even do away with the flapper and try to shoehorn something like this in there. This will probably only work for people not running power steering.
    The reason I dont want to make it use an aftermarket wastegate is cost to the end user..$50 if you know what your doing and get a good deal on used, to $200 if you just buy something new. Or this is what I'm told. Its doable though, I could just put a bend coming out the swingvalve and probably point the aftermarket wastegate down and tuck it in there. There may be enough room to do it straight towards the ZF if you bolt it right to the turbine exit.

  12. #32
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Not really any benefit to that though, you're introducing the flow way too soon in the exhaust and just causing backpressure back up to the turbine wheel.

  13. #33
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    I agree. I say just leave it external and give the user the option to buy their own flex section and reintroduce it later down, or just don't reintroduce it at all. I think if you try to put it back in so far up it limits the appeal. Wouldn't make sense to me to go out of your way to have your super optimal cone exit and then dump wastegate flow into it pretty much right after. I say put it back in down by the bottom of the k-frame, or not at all.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  14. #34
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    I agree. I say just leave it external and give the user the option to buy their own flex section and reintroduce it later down, or just don't reintroduce it at all. I think if you try to put it back in so far up it limits the appeal. Wouldn't make sense to me to go out of your way to have your super optimal cone exit and then dump wastegate flow into it pretty much right after. I say put it back in down by the bottom of the k-frame, or not at all.
    Yes thats the plan, those pics above are not what I'm intending to do.

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