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Thread: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

  1. #1
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    Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    I'm working on a swingvalve design and need to know what the turbine exit hold diameter will be for higher stage turbines, in a 0.63 chrysler style housing.

    My stage 1 is 2.166, but I'm guessing thats alot smaller than say a stage 3 or what have you?

    http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f32...e-2-2-a-9.html

    Thanks for any help!

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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    I'm a believer in a well designed swingvalve. The stock style is terrible. It's like the exhaust is hitting a brick wall. I went from stock exhaust and 2.25sv to Shadows custom 3" mandrel sv with 3" side exit exhaust. The difference was massive.

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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Asa slightly confused. Are you measuring a stage I housing? Sure you don't have a stage II housing your measuring, because a stage II wheel has a 2.122" turbine? That would still give you around .044 clearance. Are you measuring exducer area or after exducer area? Many factory .63 housings get bumped out after the actual exducer area (see pic). My brand new TU stage III is 2.299" on the exducer diameter. My stage TIII turbine is 2.229" so that works out to be .070 clearance between wheel and housing. My NOS .63 housing is 1.980" where exducer rides and bumps out to 2.125" at exit of housing (where swingvalve attaches). Stage I wheel is listed as 1.918" for a clearance of .062. Be aware that Turbonetic F1 turbines are slightly diffrerent sizes that the ones I listed. Few thousands give or take.
    Todd
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  4. #4
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    Asa slightly confused. Are you are measuring a stage I housing? Sure you don't have a stage II housing your measuring, because a stage II wheel has a 2.122" turbine? That would still give you around .044 clearance. Are you measuring exducer area or after exducer area? Many factory .63 housings get bumped out after the actual exducer area (see pic). My brand new TU stage III is 2.299" on the exducer diameter. My stage TIII turbine is 2.229" so that works out to be .070 clearance between wheel and housing. My NOS .63 housing is 1.980" where exducer rides and bumps out to 2.125" at exit of housing (where swingvalve attaches). Stage I wheel is listed as 1.918" for a clearance of .062. Be aware that Turbonetic F1 turbines are slightly diffrerent sizes that the ones I listed. Few thousands give or take.
    Todd
    wow thanks for the info Todd!

    Im just measuring the hole on my poor old hybrid turbo from FWDP, they list it as a stage 1. As long as I can get close in the design thats good enough for first round. I'll go with 2.3" then for first draft as the hole. This will be the ID of the funnel that gets mounted on top of it with a 12 degree taper out to 3.5". If that works out in the design I can always tweak it around a few thou, but I dont want to be wayyyy too small.

    Looking at your picture, I'm measuring the bigger diameter past the turbine. Since I cant make the funnel go right up to the turbine, I've got not choice but to match the funnel to the most exterior diameter on the turbo housing.

    Wait so what does your stage 3 bump out to past the exducer?

    BUT..I suppose one could machine their turbo housing to have the start of the funnel right up to the turbine lol. Thats probably overkill though?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    I'm a believer in a well designed swingvalve. The stock style is terrible. It's like the exhaust is hitting a brick wall. I went from stock exhaust and 2.25sv to Shadows custom 3" mandrel sv with 3" side exit exhaust. The difference was massive.

    yep the factory swingvalve appears to be worst case scenario in every regard except cost and space. Tightest non-smooth turn possible. Shared volume with wastegate. Small. Etc..etc..

    Can you talk more about the massive difference? What did you notice? Ive never run anything 3" or bigger for SV. Sounds like it will be fun!

  5. #5
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Spooled much quicker and hit way harder. More power at every RPM. Before if I floored it in first it would spin and hook up by the time I shifted to 2nd. After it would blow the tires away easily in 2nd gear when the boost hit. Now as I'm running smec with 3 bar setup it should really shine.

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    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post

    Wait so what does your stage 3 bump out to past the exducer?
    Stage 3 housings have no taper post exducer. We have seen tapers on GT series housings.

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    Chris Wright www.TurbosUnleashed.com Chris@TurbosUnleashed.com 602-76-BOOST Tech/Sales#: Monday-Saturday 9AM-7PM MST Proudly Serving the Turbo-Mopar Community since 1997 TU is a performance, not marketing company. We provide accurate performance data on all our performance products. Fabricating data to make us appear better is just not our style. Do the research before you buy. ROCK BOTTOM PRICES WITHOUT THE HIDDEN HANDLING FEES.... -----HOME OF THE 9 SECOND FWD T-M CLUTCH-----

  7. #7
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Asa,
    As Chris states the Stage III housings do not have a taper. The few stage II housings I've had also did not taper. I do have a stage II (F1-54) Turbonetics housing here at the moment. That ones measures 2.168" (with no taper). I can't imagine anyone using the Stage V turbine but so you have the info, the exducer on that bad boy is 2.439" or 62mm.
    However, there are a couple people out there running 6262 turbos on 8V applications but I can't imagine they are running the Chrysler housings. Many of the GT turbos in the 3071 and 3076 size use a 60mm exducer turbine. So the housing should be somewhere around 61.5 mm. IMO, 2.300" should be enough for 99% of the guys out there running the Chrysler housings. Hope this info helps you.
    Todd

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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    Asa,
    As Chris states the Stage III housings do not have a taper. The few stage II housings I've had also did not taper. I do have a stage II (F1-54) Turbonetics housing here at the moment. That ones measures 2.168" (with no taper). I can't imagine anyone using the Stage V turbine but so you have the info, the exducer on that bad boy is 2.439" or 62mm.
    However, there are a couple people out there running 6262 turbos on 8V applications but I can't imagine they are running the Chrysler housings. Many of the GT turbos in the 3071 and 3076 size use a 60mm exducer turbine. So the housing should be somewhere around 61.5 mm. IMO, 2.300" should be enough for 99% of the guys out there running the Chrysler housings. Hope this info helps you.
    Todd
    Thanks it sure does! 2.3" then for the first draft. Now to somehow fit a wastegate function between the turbo sv mating surface and the funnel coming out of the turbine. A straight wastegate pipe will hit the funnel/pipe for a 3.5" downpipe/elbow, so theres going to be some sort of curvature required I think...


  9. #9
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Stage 3 housings have no taper post exducer. We have seen tapers on GT series housings.

    Chris-TU
    thanks Chris thats useful!

  10. #10
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    IMO, 2.300" should be enough for 99% of the guys out there running the Chrysler housings.
    I think thats the key point. Anyone wanting more than a stg3 turbine is probably going to move away from the stock-style turbine housing and discharge completely anyway, so not much point catering to that.

    Im excited to hear about you working on this!

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  11. #11
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    I think thats the key point. Anyone wanting more than a stg3 turbine is probably going to move away from the stock-style turbine housing and discharge completely anyway, so not much point catering to that.

    Im excited to hear about you working on this!
    Yep I'm picking up where I left off! Even if I only make one of these I have to get it out of my system. Plus I havent been to solidworks land for a few months now and I miss it.

    The wastegate puck (and hole) is a bit of a sticking point. Space in that area is very tight, so making the puck huge, like 1.375", is not going to be easy, because of the divorced volume.

    The funnel gets in the way, as you can see. That flapper puck is a stock size of 1.139". And its hitting the funnel. The funnel is 12 degrees and goes from 2.3" at the turbine exit to 3.5" for the 3.5" OD 3.5" CLR elbow. In the pic the flapper is rotated 90 degrees, so perpendicular to the wastegate hole.

    This is with the stock exh mani. If I used the TU one, that would make it possible to use a shallower angle on the funnel and get more room. But then it wouldnt fit with the stock mani! Hmmmmm

    The thick chrysler-shaped flange represents the turbine housing mating face, its not the swingvalve design. (There is actually no swingvalve design at the moment, I'm just getting all the pieces in space)

    Do we know if the flapper valve actually opens 90 degrees? Maybe it never does and we only need something like 45 degrees of rotation?



  12. #12
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    okay after some thinking

    I dont want to make this require a TU manifold..or at least, I dont want there to be no option to use the stock mani. Plus, using the TU mani doesn't push it far enough over anyways.

    Instead of using the straight piece of pipe to extend the hole outwards and then also adding a second flange, it would be alot simpler to:

    just rotate the flapper valve so that it opens _away_ from the funnel, upwards. This should greatly reduce the clearance requirements.

    An off-the-shelf flapper valve might actually work for that. But I'll probably have to make a custom one. I'll know more shortly.

    An alternative to a flapper valve, especially if I'm making something from scratch, is to make a mini butterfly valve. Basically a flapper valve that pivots in the center of the puck and is supported on one or both sides. That would require even less clearance and should be pretty easy to make. It doesnt have to be as precise as an intake throttle body. Just something that roughly seals and rotates smoothly without binding at high temperature. I could copy the clearances and design from the existing flapper valve as far as the pivoting and bushing dimensions.

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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    hmm..looks like it wont hit the funnel anymore..but how to convert the actuator motion into flapper motion..because now as the actuator arm moves passenger side it will close the valve instead of open it..

    the butterfly valve is looking better and better

    it could have a housing which allows it to be BIG..so the customer can port the turbine housing wastegate hole bigger (or not) without need to be concerned if it will affect the swingvalve..the butterfly valve could be say 1.4" diameter or who knows even bigger. room to grow..



    - - - Updated - - -

    im not sure if butterfly valves are appropriate for this. From what I can tell external wastegates tend to use poppet valves and those and the stock flapper valve both have extremely fast opening characteristics versus a butterfly valve I think..and extremely fast is good for negative feedback like this..a butterfly valve may be too slow..unless its real big (relatively speaking). I dunno.

    - - - Updated - - -

    hmm

    "Sound performance has copied this design somewhat with their Quick Spool Valve, meant for universal applications."

    http://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/s4-vs-s5-turbo-exhaust-manifold-921791/#post10211051

    worth a try?


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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    used on aircraft

    http://okigihan.blogspot.com/p/recip...ystems_16.html

    I suppose if I make the butterfly valve really big I can approximate the opening rate of a smaller flapper / poppet valve...maybe


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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    now we're talking..thats a 1.5" diameter butterfly valve in the picture..it looks like there is room to make a much larger one.

    PROS:
    allows much more clearance for big diameter downpipe elbow and big funnel, and still using the stock manifold
    can be made much larger than a flapper in the same space
    since its custom made can have tighter quality controls and be more closely integrated into the design vs an off the shelf flapper

    CONS:
    unknown opening characteristics/performance/reliability
    requires design from scratch and cost to manufacture vs off-the-shelf
    will always have a blockage in the middle but since it can be made much bigger than a flapper I dont think this is an issue really
    unclear exactly how the linkage will work with existing actuator
    will require a more extensive/larger housing than a flapper (presumably) meaning more machining and steel costs

    anything else??


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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    I think rotating it 90 degrees would make more sense...that would put the pivot point up near the stock flapper pivot point and give much greater opening rate per actuator extension

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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    Why not just put a slight angle cut on the funnel where it attaches to the flange so that its angled downward very slightly to get the amount of clearance needed for the flapper?

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    maybe even drop the top of the funnel until it's at right angles to the turbine houseing

    then the bottom of the funnel will already be angled down somewhat compared to mounting it square on the turbine houseing

    that would mean a little less bend in the elbow is needed to boot

    no point in any of the exhaust gasses trying to move upwards going into the funnel when it only has to change direction again to get to the down pipe

  19. #19
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    To angle the funnel downward enough, the top edge would basically need to be parallel to the exit of the turbine.

    I think the idea of the funnel is that the gases can expand in a certain gradual way where the least pressure build/vortices occur. If the funnel goes off axis and also at an angle to the turbine then we may lose the whole benefit of having it there?

    Also making the funnel more complex than a simple cone probably works against keeping it easy/cheap to make. Not sure completely. I may be using solidworks magic to arbitrarily "unroll" the funnel, even if it had random angles cut into it, into a piece of flat sheet metal that can be CNC cut and then rolled on a hand roller into a cone-like shape. But I have a bad feeling about making non-square cuts to the funnel. Seems like that will end up being tricky to make.

    Do you guys not like the butterfly valve because it seems too complicated? It really shouldn't be. Its just a disc and a shaft. The rest ends up being basically the same as the flapper as far as a housing, bushings, and pivot arm. I mean if I cant make a butterfly valve then somethings wrong in my head lol ...gotta move up in complexity/capability here or I'll be stuck forever with making things with no moving parts.

  20. #20
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    Re: Turbine exit hole dia at various stages?

    I don't see anything wrong with a butterfly valve.

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