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Thread: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

  1. #1
    turbo addict Pat's Avatar
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    turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    I just started messing with this, so forgive me if this has been covered before. Warren helped me set up a t3 cal based on the +40 template to get me started. We scaled for 72's, set a staging limiter, lowered fan turn on/off temps and set the CEL knock light.

    Here is what I'm experiencing so far:
    -on cold start, it will fire, but it feels like it's loading up and has a cylinder or two misfiring. If I rev it a few times, it cleans up
    -on warm start, sometimes it won't start at all. When I crank it, it will barely start to fire and immediately shut off. In all three instances it happened, it eventually started but after waiting and/or unplugging the SBEC power for a few seconds.
    - cold idle is ok. It occasionally hunts a bit, but is usually fine. After driving for a few minutes, warm idle gets crazy. It will hunt for a bit and then slowly climb to between 2000-2300, go dead lean, and starts misfiring. Hit the gas/drive and it feels better, but at a stop light it goes right back to the beginning of that cycle.
    - off throttle/decel - when the above idle issue is happening, it sometimes will not decel off throttle and will just maintain whatever rpm/speed it's at. When this happens, rpms will sometimes jump when I clutch it to shift.

    I'm going to start hunting around tonight or tomorrow, but wanted to see if anyone else has experienced this and if so, what they did to address it.

    Thanks,
    Pat

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    8 less valves would fix that problem.

    ;-)


    Working on clearing the decks.

  3. #3
    turbo addict Pat's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post
    8 less valves would fix that problem.

    ;-)
    Doh!!!!

  4. #4
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Batoff needs to be adjusted (reduced) for those big injectors.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

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  5. #5
    turbo addict Pat's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Thanks, Rob. Anything else need to be changed that wouldn't have change with the rescale?

    BTW, since you weren't at sdac, I'll drop that extra latch board you sent me in the mail.

  6. #6
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    Thanks, Rob. Anything else need to be changed that wouldn't have change with the rescale?

    BTW, since you weren't at sdac, I'll drop that extra latch board you sent me in the mail.
    I don't think so. Injector scaling is pretty simple. Was it also scaled for 4-bar? If so, it might need some tweaking. I'd have to see the transfer functions to know.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  7. #7
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    rob, you have a current version of the injector latency spreadsheet that you posted years ago? the version hosted on this site always comes back with a "bad zip file" when i download it and extract it.

    i have an old version from 2009 or earlier but i was wondering if there was a newer one.

    thx.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  8. #8
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    rob, you have a current version of the injector latency spreadsheet that you posted years ago? the version hosted on this site always comes back with a "bad zip file" when i download it and extract it.

    i have an old version from 2009 or earlier but i was wondering if there was a newer one.

    thx.

    Brian
    I haven't updated it in years. Yours from 2009 is probably good.

    I'll check the zip file also.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  9. #9
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Thx rob

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  10. #10
    turbo addict Pat's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    I don't think so. Injector scaling is pretty simple. Was it also scaled for 4-bar? If so, it might need some tweaking. I'd have to see the transfer functions to know.

    No, still 3 bar.

  11. #11
    turbo addict Pat's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    So today I messed around with the Batoff table. At first, I reduced the values in that table, moving up to as much as 40%. If anything, the warm start issues started sooner, so I decided to go the other way, moving the table up, eventually getting as much as 40%. While I haven't picked up the idle craziness I experienced the other night (likely because I haven't driven it), it definitely won't start when it's at operating temp.

  12. #12
    turbo addict Pat's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Picking up these errors when I load the 3bar/52lb turbonator template into MPTune. Any ideas?


    Warning->Injector scaling was changed to word. Please review line:
    ;mpinjscale scale
    for table DensityFactorPartThrottle

    Warning->Injector scaling was changed to word. Please review line:
    ;mpinjscale scale
    for table DensityFactorFullThrottle

    Warning->Injector scaling was changed to byte. Please review line:
    ;mpinjscale invert
    for table FuelMonitorCorrection2

  13. #13
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    I get the same errors when loading it to look at.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  14. #14
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Yeah, I need to update the templates to the correct scale type. MP Tune fixes them for you if you save the file.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

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  15. #15
    turbo addict Pat's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    I've done some tinkering to try to isolate the warm start and idle issues I'm having with the '91 T3 turbonator cal. As I mentioned initially, I started with the base 3 bar +40 cal. We scaled it to 72 lb injectors, set a staging limiter, lowered fan temps, set the CEL knock light. Car started up, idled a bit funny, but ran. However, once it warmed up, the idle started to increase to the point where it was oscillating between 2000-2300 and was dead lean misfiring. Step on the gas, and it would clean up some. If it was shut off or stalled (which happened occasionally), it would not restart until it cooled a bit. Based on Rob's suggestion above regarding latency, I messed with the batoff table in both directions but the same problems existed.

    Test 1: load up the base '91 3 bar +40 cal with no changes. I did not change the injectors, so it still had the 72's in it. Other than being rich at first start up (expected), it started, warmed up, idled fine and I could turn it off and had no restart issues.

    Test 2: Take the base '91 3 bar +40 cal, scale to 72's, change nothing else. Idle and restart problems reappeared.

    Test 3: Take the base '91 3 bar +40 cal, set all of the options we set up originally *except* I did not change the injector scaling. It was still set up for +40's (again, left the 72's in just for the test). It fired up and had none of the idle or warm start issues I had when I scaled the injectors. I took the car out for a drive with this set up last night and other than being rich due to the injectors in it, the car ran and drove fine. Driveability was better, less stumbles, the idle never went berserk, no stalling and I could turn it off and it would restart fully warmed up.

    I suspect that there is bug or an error somewhere in the scaling function. Everything seems to function as expected until I scale the fuel tables, then it all seems to go awry. My next step is to look through the tables that get scaled and compare them to see if I can identify potential issues, but I'm looking for input/suggestions.

    Any ideas?

    Thanks,
    Pat

  16. #16
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    worse case you could manually scale 3 or 4 tables at a time on a base cal so they match up with the auto scaled cal until you experience the issues noted.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

  17. #17
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    I also had issues using the 3 bar + 40 tune, similar issues. This was the sbecii file, but I'm certain they are similar. What I did was start with the stock tune, scale the injectors (75.6) then I adjusted the battery offset fuel table. Then I messed with 2 tables that adjust the part throttle and full throttle maps. The ecu uses this modifier table along with the main 3d fuel tables to calculate needed fuel. After this, fuel was dialed in, then I copied all the spark tables from the +40 tune to my tune. Still fine tuning now, but it's really close now.

  18. #18
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    I also had issues using the 3 bar + 40 tune, similar issues. This was the sbecii file, but I'm certain they are similar. What I did was start with the stock tune, scale the injectors (75.6) then I adjusted the battery offset fuel table. Then I messed with 2 tables that adjust the part throttle and full throttle maps. The ecu uses this modifier table along with the main 3d fuel tables to calculate needed fuel. After this, fuel was dialed in, then I copied all the spark tables from the +40 tune to my tune. Still fine tuning now, but it's really close now.
    Which 2 fuel modifier tables did you adjust?

    Oh, and you're right - the SBEC and SBECII TIII calibrations are identical. The file differences are only related to the ECU hardware differences (mostly I/O).
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  19. #19
    boostaholic
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    turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    I have modified the part throttle and full throttle density factor tables with great success so far.

    To make things easier I did find the injector lag time for mine and set the fuelbatteryoffset using that data.

    Www.injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html

  20. #20
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: turbonator T3 - idle and warm start issues

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    I have modified the part throttle and full throttle density factor tables with great success so far.

    To make things easier I did find the injector lag time for mine and set the fuelbatteryoffset using that data.

    Www.injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html
    I think those are already scaled for injectors, right? That should have basically the same effect as scaling the entire 3D table.

    The 72lb injectors - they're rated at 43.5psi base fuel pressure, right? Are you running them at 55psi (stock); or 43.5 psi?
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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