Need opinions, opening up van's bumper cover for more air.

[A.J.]

I want to open up the holes in my bumper cover to allow more air flow through the front of my van. I would like opinions because I don't want it to look like crap and I only get one shot at this.

This is what I'm starting with:


This is what behind everything looks like. I did lower the trans cooler (drivers side) to expose more of my condenser to fresh air. I had it higher because I had the IC water pump under it but that has been relocated.


This is what I'm thinking, just enough to expose the lower coolers to direct airflow:


Or I could open them up more. I just don't know since there is nothing in the lower center for the ram air to cool or flow through:


I really don't want to open up the whole thing even though I think this looks the best. I'd like to keep a center support in the bumper cover since it's really flexible urethane. So this is out:


I'd like to work on this tomorrow so don't wait to voice your opinions.

[turboshelbys]

I want to open up the holes in my bumper cover to allow more air flow through the front of my van. I would like opinions because I don't want it to look like crap and I only get one shot at this.

This is what I'm starting with:


This is what behind everything looks like. I did lower the trans cooler (drivers side) to expose more of my condenser to fresh air. I had it higher because I had the IC water pump under it but that has been relocated.


This is what I'm thinking, just enough to expose the lower coolers to direct airflow:


Or I could open them up more. I just don't know since there is nothing in the lower center for the ram air to cool or flow through:


I really don't want to open up the whole thing even though I think this looks the best. I'd like to keep a center support in the bumper cover since it's really flexible urethane. So this is out:


I'd like to work on this tomorrow so don't wait to voice your opinions.

I like the dual smaller openings, I think that should do you perfectly. Also, it's much easier to remove material then put it back. I would start with the small ones and see how it functions/looks and go from there.

[Ondonti]

Ducting. You have plenty of open area for air to flow per your core sizes, the air just wants to travel the path of least resistance.

[cordes]

Ducting. You have plenty of open area for air to flow per your core sizes, the air just wants to travel the path of least resistance.

That is the first thing I would do.

[A.J.]

Ducting. You have plenty of open area for air to flow per your core sizes, the air just wants to travel the path of least resistance.

Apparently you don't own a van. My grill it 1/32" away from my ic heat exchanger. I don't have room for ducting up top, hence why I want to cut open my bumper cover because 1/4 of my radiator/condenser is covered by the bumper and 3/4 of my oil cooler and trans cooler is covered. Once I open the bumper cover (which is ALL I want opinions on) I can duct the ---- out of it.

[bfarroo]

I like the two larger or one large opening

[cordes]

Apparently you don't own a van. My grill it 1/32" away from my ic heat exchanger. I don't have room for ducting up top, hence why I want to cut open my bumper cover because 1/4 of my radiator/condenser is covered by the bumper and 3/4 of my oil cooler and trans cooler is covered. Once I open the bumper cover (which is ALL I want opinions on) I can duct the ---- out of it.

How low is the bottom of the core support there? I would put a piece below it to force air through the cores better if there isn't anything there already.

If you have that little room then you could probably go with some foam or something sandwiched in there. It seems crazy, but a little ducting goes a very long way.

[Ondonti]

Apparently you don't own a van. My grill it 1/32" away from my ic heat exchanger. I don't have room for ducting up top, hence why I want to cut open my bumper cover because 1/4 of my radiator/condenser is covered by the bumper and 3/4 of my oil cooler and trans cooler is covered. Once I open the bumper cover (which is ALL I want opinions on) I can duct the ---- out of it.

How low is the bottom of the core support there? I would put a piece below it to force air through the cores better if there isn't anything there already.

If you have that little room then you could probably go with some foam or something sandwiched in there. It seems crazy, but a little ducting goes a very long way.

If you already have a hole all the way through then just change things so you can fit ducting.
Looks like you really only need ducting below the grill anyways, the area where you are not complaining about space.

My opinion was and is to not cut anything. Cutting it up just decreases the sleeper in the van and gains more flowpath for air to go around your exchangers and not through the grill or your radiator either. There is no flowpath behind the exchangers either so that could be improved. That is probably the main reason why you need ducting. Look at top tier 4 cylinder drag cars and see how little opening they have in their front end for air to air intercoolers. Every little bit of air they allow in is forced through the intercooler and then maybe the radiator.

You only have so much frontal area to "collect" air. IMO you might as well have put your heat exhangers up higher behind the grill. The exhangers heating up the air before hitting the radiator is the same downside to taking away total airflow through the radiator by diverting air someplace else. Currently air moves into that grill, and if you had a nice airdam, it would force more air from under the bumper to go up and through the radiator. You could have then ducted your grill into your exhangers, even if its just a 1/32nd duct, if it forces air through instead of around, you win.

[A.J.]

If you already have a hole all the way through then just change things so you can fit ducting.
Looks like you really only need ducting below the grill anyways, the area where you are not complaining about space.

My opinion was and is to not cut anything. Cutting it up just decreases the sleeper in the van and gains more flowpath for air to go around your exchangers and not through the grill or your radiator either. There is no flowpath behind the exchangers either so that could be improved. That is probably the main reason why you need ducting. Look at top tier 4 cylinder drag cars and see how little opening they have in their front end for air to air intercoolers. Every little bit of air they allow in is forced through the intercooler and then maybe the radiator.

You only have so much frontal area to "collect" air. IMO you might as well have put your heat exhangers up higher behind the grill. The exhangers heating up the air before hitting the radiator is the same downside to taking away total airflow through the radiator by diverting air someplace else. Currently air moves into that grill, and if you had a nice airdam, it would force more air from under the bumper to go up and through the radiator. You could have then ducted your grill into your exhangers, even if its just a 1/32nd duct, if it forces air through instead of around, you win.

Okay, this is a better explanation and makes more sense. What I was trying to accomplish was to free up frontal area in front of the condenser for fresh air and utilize the dead space below my bumper but you're right, if there is no air path behind my heat exchangers then it doesn't make much sense to leave them down there. So what I think I'm going to do now is move the oil cooler (pass side) up, move the trans cooler (drivers side) back up, open up the openings I already have side ways, and build ducting for those openings towards the coolers.

[johnl]

I know you are a big fan of good fans (pun intended) but I have to ask, is there room/feasibility for front side pushers?

[A.J.]

I know you are a big fan of good fans (pun intended) but I have to ask, is there room/feasibility for front side pushers?

No room in the front for a pusher. On a 113* day on the highway cruising at 70 mph with the AC on pulling a slight grade, coolant temps get up to 220*. If I turn my Volvo fan on it will cool it down to 210*. So fans (or lack of them) isn't my problem.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Have you yarn tested those vents on the hood? If they're too close to the window you might be pressurizing your engine bay and hurting airflow through the coolers.

Do the oil coolers have to be rotated that direction? My thought is would they fit rotated 90 degrees so they fit behind the current cut-outs better, then you can duct them directly to the coolers and duct the back sides of them up to the radiator bottom.

I'd also add ducting on the sides of the A/W cooler to the a/c core and then from the grill to the a/c core next to the headlights so no air can go around it. Every drop of air going into the grill has to go through the cooling system. So you need to force it through with ducting and then pull it out by creating a negative pressure area behind them.

If you move the coolers up then I'd block the bumper holes off.

[Ondonti]

I think if you forced all the air going through the grill to go through the radiator area you would be successful. Air that doesn't go through your slots is going through your grill or around the car or under the car. I just don't think the heat from the exchangers is going to ruin your radiators day. There are a lot of things you could do about it but IMO at least with the fan on the radiator you get some flow through the exhangers sitting still when things really heat up.

But if I remember right, you only need your opening to be 20-25% of your core area on the CONSERVATIVE side (race cars go smaller) so you could repurpose your grill to duct into the coolers AND still have air to spare (still have 60-75% of your grill area for your radiator). Just getting an airdam below should make a huge improvement.

Look at what Red Slet or Boots are doing with their Neons. Almost no opening for their intercoolers. They force a LOT of air through the opening that is there.

[cordes]

I think if you forced all the air going through the grill to go through the radiator area you would be successful. Air that doesn't go through your slots is going through your grill or around the car or under the car. I just don't think the heat from the exchangers is going to ruin your radiators day. There are a lot of things you could do about it but IMO at least with the fan on the radiator you get some flow through the exhangers sitting still when things really heat up.

But if I remember right, you only need your opening to be 20-25% of your core area on the CONSERVATIVE side (race cars go smaller) so you could repurpose your grill to duct into the coolers AND still have air to spare (still have 60-75% of your grill area for your radiator). Just getting an airdam below should make a huge improvement.

Look at what Red Slet or Boots are doing with their Neons. Almost no opening for their intercoolers. They force a LOT of air through the opening that is there.

I've seen that 25% number enough times to believe it. There are countless types of car that use a very small grill with great ducting.

Heck, look at the old Thunderbird TCs. Mine had an intercooler laying down so the air would flow through the core before making the turn up to the rad. I NEVER had it run hot. Good fans for traffic and ducting to all get out for high RPM freeway blasts. Mine had just about every option which brought them close to 3800lbs from what I've read. As I stated before it's amazing how far a little ducting will go.

[acannell]

I've seen that 25% number enough times to believe it. There are countless types of car that use a very small grill with great ducting.

Heck, look at the old Thunderbird TCs. Mine had an intercooler laying down so the air would flow through the core before making the turn up to the rad. I NEVER had it run hot. Good fans for traffic and ducting to all get out for high RPM freeway blasts. Mine had just about every option which brought them close to 3800lbs from what I've read. As I stated before it's amazing how far a little ducting will go.

yep...

I would say in order of most benefit to least benefit:

-making coolers bigger
-optimizing ducting
-unstacking coolers so they arent in series
-making holes in front bigger (in this situation..i.e. not part of a ducting design)

and what zero data debate would be complete without an annoying nascar reference?

[Rrider]

Your mini looks badass as is with that black grill. Would be a shame to take away from the badassness with those huge holes. Is there some stackable heat-proof foam tape that you could use to build up air dams between your coolers/bumpers/supports?? Like in layers. That would allow you to take everything apart, and it has squish to it. Which would make it work easier than a rigid dam solution. There has got to be something that would work. Something better than craft store foam tape, but cheaper than VHB.

[csxtra]

How about extending the bottom of the core support to minimize air going under the core support?

Some of the later T-Ms had a plastic air dam that mounts to the core support that did just that. I put one on my CSX years ago when I was having issues with it getting warm on the highway (225 or so) with the A/C on. Just putting the extension on dropped temps at least 10-15 degrees. It creates a better low-pressure area behind the core support, increasing flow through the coolers and radiator.

Of course it won't help around town, but every little bit helps.

[acannell]

How about extending the bottom of the core support to minimize air going under the core support?

Some of the later T-Ms had a plastic air dam that mounts to the core support that did just that. I put one on my CSX years ago when I was having issues with it getting warm on the highway (225 or so) with the A/C on. Just putting the extension on dropped temps at least 10-15 degrees. It creates a better low-pressure area behind the core support, increasing flow through the coolers and radiator.

Of course it won't help around town, but every little bit helps.

yup I have this on my 90 daytona..I wonder if its compatible with all the bodys? That would seem to be a very convenient way to build pressure before the coolers

[cordes]

I'm pretty sure that all the cars came with that plastic piece.

[acannell]

I'm pretty sure that all the cars came with that plastic piece.

okay I think I found it..#11 for the daytona for sure..

the van one is apparently #14...but I cant tell if its located way before the coolers i.e. would not help..is it more of a front lip spoiler or does it go in the same anatomical location as the daytona?