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Thread: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

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    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor iTurbo's Avatar
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    What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Wondering what a good upgrade turbo would be for a modded Spirit R/T that currently has a T3/T4 50-trim that is running out of steam.

    Currently the car has a stockish 3" downpipe and uses an ATP 50-trim T3/T04E 50 trim/stg 3 with .72 A/R "Cosworth" turbine housing (stock style) and stock TIII O2 housing. The car is ROCKING totally and we are pretty happy with it, but I'm not so sure this turbo will push much past 25 psi boost @ WOT. It uses a FWDP 'budget' intercooler upgrade and FWDP stage IV TIII SBEC. It was recently upgraded to 65 lb/hr fuel injectors and also has a methanol injection kit installed.

    It would be nice to have a bolt-on option but it's looking more and more like a Holset and a new downpipe may be in order. I wonder if there is a larger T3/T4 hybrid that could be retrofitted easily or if it's Holset all the way at this point.

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    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanman²'s Avatar
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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    That turbo with the right mods will easily make power passed 30 psi.

    If your really wanting an upgrade, HE351 or HX40 are good choices, plus changing compressor wheels is really easy, no balancing required AND there are tons of compressor wheels on the market.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Yeah I agree Jeremy with Simon, that is enough turbo for 450-475 if pushed hard. 30 PSI should be within reach. Either that or you have a really good flowing Lotus head! Your budget intercooler could be robbing you of some boost due to larger than you think restriction. That TIII elbow isn't huge on the TIII's but it's a whole lot better than the 2.5" swingvalves the 8V engines received. I'm sure you could work the TIII elbow outlet some more. I had to do that with Quacks Masi IHI swingvalve. There wasn't a whole lot left of the original swingvalve after I got done with it.

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    Yeah I agree Jeremy with Simon, that is enough turbo for 450-475 if pushed hard. 30 PSI should be within reach. Either that or you have a really good flowing Lotus head! Your budget intercooler could be robbing you of some boost due to larger than you think restriction. That TIII elbow isn't huge on the TIII's but it's a whole lot better than the 2.5" swingvalves the 8V engines received. I'm sure you could work the TIII elbow outlet some more. I had to do that with Quacks Masi IHI swingvalve. There wasn't a whole lot left of the original swingvalve after I got done with it.
    Comp turbo 5858 triple ball bearing.... that's what's going on my r/t next... I like the Holset I have on it now a lot, but want a quicker spool and broader power range for street use. luckily for me we are a comp turbo dealer!
    FWD Performance is a performance shop with a significant investment in this market. We pride oursleves with a hard work ethic, friendly customer service, and honest business dealings with no hidden fees. FWD Performance, Real Race Products by Real Racers.

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Quote Originally Posted by glhs727 View Post
    Comp turbo 5858 triple ball bearing.... that's what's going on my r/t next... I like the Holset I have on it now a lot, but want a quicker spool and broader power range for street use. luckily for me we are a comp turbo dealer!
    PLEASE post up before/after of this with dyno plots that include rpm along with the details of the setup so a true comparison can be made.

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    i turbo, do you have any idea the power you are making now? like any dyno figures? and what makes you think your running out of steam?

    i think as mentioned before, a modified elbow/downpipe might help things out?

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    i turbo, do you have any idea the power you are making now? like any dyno figures? and what makes you think your running out of steam?

    i think as mentioned before, a modified elbow/downpipe might help things out?
    It's not really my car anymore, but rather my old red Spirit R/T that is owned by a local friend now. He really took it to the next level after I sold it to him in pretty much stock form and added the T3/T04E, big intercooler, +40 injectors and SBEC etc etc...

    He has had it turned up to 20 psi @ WOT for a while, but recently added a methanol injection kit from Snow Performance and TCS system from ND Performance. We don't have any dyno charts or track data, but he did say when he tried to turn it up recently it seemed to go up to 25 psi and start to fall back down again. That is with a grainger valve controller and an internal wastegate can from ATP.

    The downpipe consists of a stockish 3" downpipe, but still uses a couple inches of the original 2.5" downpipe donut attached to the stock TIII O2 housing on the .72 A/R ATP turbine housing. It's probably the 2nd fastest car I've ever been in behind Jackson's green IROC R/T.

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Perhaps the wastegate actuator is just blowing open lowering boost? What lb spring is in actuator? How much preload? Ported wastegate hole? Sometimes the thin actuator brackets flex too. Before I would be investing in another $1000+ turbo I would make sure it's not something that simple. Easy enough to check.
    BTW- Doesn't the stock Grainger valve run out of adjustment around 20 PSI, or did you put in a stiffer/second spring in it?
    Todd

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    He could be running out of fuel, no way that turbo is done at 20 psi. Warren pushed that turbo into the 500 whp zone and many others have pushed it higher.

    I'm with Todd, there are other issues at play here.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    Perhaps the wastegate actuator is just blowing open lowering boost? What lb spring is in actuator? How much preload? Ported wastegate hole? Sometimes the thin actuator brackets flex too. Before I would be investing in another $1000+ turbo I would make sure it's not something that simple. Easy enough to check.
    BTW- Doesn't the stock Grainger valve run out of adjustment around 20 PSI, or did you put in a stiffer/second spring in it?
    Todd
    I will have to call ATP and verify the spring pressure in the actuator. The actuator bracket is ATP 'universal' 1/8" aluminum and quite sturdy so I doubt it's that, but I'll take a look at the preload.

    He recently installed a set of 65 lb/hr injectors from FWDP and it's still running a bit rich if anything. He said he tried to raise the boost after installing the injectors and that's when it didn't seem to want to go above ~ 25 psi.

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Time to do some drive pressure checks and such. I bet there's more in that turbo and there's something in the system holding it back.

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    FWIW on a very similar combo, I found that the old exhaust cutout on my R/T would cause the boost to raise by 6-7 psi when it was open. The rest of the exhuast was 3" mandrel bent pipe.
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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Quote Originally Posted by 86Shelby View Post
    FWIW on a very similar combo, I found that the old exhaust cutout on my R/T would cause the boost to raise by 6-7 psi when it was open. The rest of the exhuast was 3" mandrel bent pipe.
    Wow! Aside from the stock 2.5" donut, this car has full 3" mandrel bent exhaust system from FWDP. No cat, and a straight thru Ultraflo muffler.

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    I ran the 50 trim on my van, 3" exhaust, thru a cat and 2 mufflers, had no problem making power at 30 psi.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Until he confirms that the wastegate is not blowing open its not useful to worry about more extreme fixes.
    If it is, then we have to look at the actuator AND any contributors to backpressure AND charge pipe restriction.
    But, skipping to the next step.....

    Who really cares what your boost pressure is. If the turbo ran out of compressor at 25psi, then he has a great flowing setup. I doubt this is the case.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    I'm running a T3/T4 50 trim with a 48 housing hogged out to a stage 3 wheel and running 24lbs with it. No meth and starts spool around 3200rpm and holds steady.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The car does run on the rich side of things, I would like to strap it to a dyno and get some numbers.

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    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor iTurbo's Avatar
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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Until he confirms that the wastegate is not blowing open its not useful to worry about more extreme fixes.
    If it is, then we have to look at the actuator AND any contributors to backpressure AND charge pipe restriction.
    But, skipping to the next step.....

    Who really cares what your boost pressure is. If the turbo ran out of compressor at 25psi, then he has a great flowing setup. I doubt this is the case.
    I think you guys are right. It's just a stock production TIII head with stock intake/TB, and a ported exhaust manifold. I think it has more huff in it yet...

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Anybody care to recommend a good spark plug for a big turbo/high boost TIII? It's been running NGK GR5 plugs for a while now with no issues at .025" gap, but from the sounds of it is beginning to blow the spark out now at WOT.

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    I used AR51's IIRC and BPR9EIX.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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    Re: What is a good turbo upgrade over the T3/T4 50-trim?

    Quote Originally Posted by iTurbo View Post
    Anybody care to recommend a good spark plug for a big turbo/high boost TIII? It's been running NGK GR5 plugs for a while now with no issues at .025" gap, but from the sounds of it is beginning to blow the spark out now at WOT.
    I would always drop the gap to prove that is the issue.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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