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Thread: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

  1. #41
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Quote Originally Posted by jayspartanburg View Post
    89 TC

    Sent from my LGMS330 using Tapatalk
    Lookin good!!

    Hmm as far as removing I'm not sure...I know I must have done that a few times but I cant remember if I cheated somehow to make it easier so I could do fitment testing. Like grinding a notch in the turbo flange on the ex man. I know I was using a very long allen wrench I cut off with a socket to drive it, but I'm not sure if that was for the stock manifold, or the BMF or both sorry

    I would suggest looking at each bolt and figuring out plan. I am pretty sure the bolts near the exh man turbo flange will be the most difficult. They may seem impossible. But if you use a long ball-end hex wrench cut off with a socket wrench to drive it, might work out. You may have to grind down the shaft of the hex wrench where it will touch the flange to get that extra bit of angle. Just assume worst case scenario here and it might go pretty smoothly

  2. #42
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    I still have my engine at a buddies house getting the custom header made. The BMF is mounted, but mostly for mockup purposes. I wont tighten everything down until I get the motor completely dressed up and set into the car, but that's gonna take awhile.. I'll be sure to get updates when I can though

  3. #43
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Last year, I dyno tuned my car on E85 at ~21psi, resulted in 290whp

    Since then, Microsquirt, more efficient intercooler, a T04B V trim instead of a T04E 50 trim, and a chambered muffler.

    This year, I dyno tuned it on E54 at ~24psi, resulted in 350whp.
    I'm more surprised by my minimal boost settings, 13psi and 250whp!


    There are two set of dyno pulls on this graph.

    Red lines - HP and torque when I started.
    Blue lines - HP and torque when I left.


  4. #44
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Took my car to a DynoJet a few weeks ago. Looks like the Dyno Dynamics machine is calibrated really close to the DynoJet machine.

    Boost starts at 7psi and creep to 13psi. Made 248whp at 12.5psi. Nice flat torque curve.


    Power run spiked over 29psi then come back to a stead 26psi.


    So, if your cylinder head can flow, BMF intake manifold is a great addition.
    Last edited by tryingbe; 04-21-2020 at 01:18 PM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Took my car to a DynoJet a few weeks ago. Looks like the Dyno Dynamics machine is calibrated really close to the DynoJet machine.

    Boost starts at 7psi and creep to 13psi. Made 248whp at 12.5psi. Nice flat torque curve.


    Power run spiked over 29psi then come back to a stead 26psi.


    So, if your cylinder can flow, BMF intake manifold is a great addition.
    WTF wow 370whp?? Whats next for your build? Dear me

  6. #46
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    WTF wow 370whp?? Whats next for your build? Dear me
    Good question to ponder.

    What I know I don't care about is drag racing. I can't drive, I don't have slicks, and I broken an axle and engine mount bracket.

    I can probably break 400whp since I still have injectors duty cycle to spare and my Turbo will support it.



    I can put in 4 bar map sensor to run over 29psi, but I like efficiency than just raising the boost.
    I used E54 for the dyno, but I have access of E70 and E85, which means I can run more ignition timing and add power that way.
    I also have a different camshaft I can try and see what it bring.

    Weather is starting to get warm so if I want to change parts/fuel and tune, I'll have to do it before summer.


    So, 4 map sensor, E70/E85, and different cam shaft. I'll probably try the camshaft first since I own it and I can compare logs.
    Last edited by tryingbe; 04-06-2018 at 02:57 PM.

  7. #47
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Looking at Tryingbe's build I see that the top end is almost identical to mine. Same FM head with the IMSA sized valves, and BMF, and hybrid turbo (mine is a 50 trim)

    Mine is a 2.5 and has a stock camshaft. This year I would like to get it on a dyno and maybe find a camshaft for it. I have a feeling that I'm going to need to get into the bottom end again before its all done, With the stock cam this thing likes 5500 to 7000 rpm a lot. I even had this thing to about 7800 rpm before but I am afraid of the bottom end.

    I am running stock electronics but I am on E85 and run 18 psi and so far I have not been knock limited at all, at one time I had it up to 37 degrees of timing with no knock (cool day no heatsoak)
    Ian Adams Function>Form 1990 shadow scrapped, too rusty:( 1991 Spirit R/T Scrapped, parts sold:( 1989 Turbo Caravan Daily beater with built-[I]ish [/I]​engine slowly evolving into weekend turbo beater.

  8. #48
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post

    I entered the data into the excel version of the turbo calculator from the Dyno Graph and my MS log, it turned out the dip in the dyno is when my engine experienced surge.



    This is a rough graph, but it shows enough to let me know I had a surge issue. I have since make my boost control more stable (less boost spike), and I did not experience surge at the drag strip.



    Guess I'll be going back to 50 trim if I need to replace the turbo.

  9. #49
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Good question to ponder.

    I can put in 4 bar map sensor to run over 29psi, but I like efficiency than just raising the boost.
    Efficiency, such an elegant word, but even in this day and age and after all this community has witnessed, prob the most misunderstood ;(

    With the wrong turbo, 25psi boost Could be inefficient, while with the right turbo, 40psi could be Optimum Efficiency!

    Still the #1 problem with turbo builds I see (other than lack of maintenance and common sense, attention to detail) is the misunderstanding that making more power on less boost = Efficiency.

    Don't get me wrong, there is validity to this statement, to a mechanical degree of the engine itself, but it will always be completely Relative to the turbo that is being run.

    So just to clear the air and make things completely seeable;

    For any given engine size and power level, there will be an Optimal turbo charger (optimal compressor and housing mated to optimal turbine wheel and housing) and it will Need to operate at it's optimal pressure Relative to That Specific engine build!

    So you could be running a turbo and build that will only see 100% efficiency @ 35psi and your running it @ 20psi because you think that's efficiency. Then, rather than increase efficiency by raising the boost, you decide to put a different turbo on to make more power on 20psi, making the entire pkg Less efficient!

    Now, if you want to argue that you entire goal is to make the most power @ 20psi Period, and that is you criteria of efficiency for your build then so be it. Just understand that it doesn't mean the build is making power as efficiently as it could.

    If your feeling lost, don't worry, your not alone. I've been trying to explain this for what seems like my whole life lol

    No better eg. then what happened on the Dart forums with Tork motorsports. A once supporting vendor that was going to produce an efficient upgrade turbo for the 1.4l Dart turbo platform. When they announced the spec of the turbo they were going to build I cautioned them that it most likely would not work. The guy representing them blew a gasket and tried to flame me for even thinking I might know something that they didn't, rather than just take some sound advice. After all, who was I compared to all of the Top people they had passed this buy and all of the Experts that said it Would work?!

    I further explained that my biggest concern was that they invest all of this R&D into something that was doomed to fail from the start and end up Defeated and No upgrade turbo for the Dart and now I have to build it.

    Well that's exactly what happened. A year and a half with promising updates, its all working good, just need to sort a few things out, then it finally comes out; Total failure to launch! So upgrade was scraped and very soon after Tork disappeared from the Dart forums after Promising that it Wouldn't defeat them and that IF they failed like I had warned, they would just learn from it and have another go!

    So what was the Crucial piece of the puzzle that they dropped the ball on? The lack of understanding that more power on lower boost = Efficiency!

    They had made somewhere near 240WHP on the stock turbo @ 28-31psi boost and at a pressure differential of something ridiculous like 7:1.

    Without a thorough understanding of drive pressure and turbo sizing, they now planned on building a turbo that could support 250WHP @ only 15psi!

    Could that be possible? Sure it could, with a turbine wheel and housing that would be too large for any drivability to be left in the Dart! lol

    So to retain drivability, they decided to retain the stock turbine housing and wheel, which was absolutely ludicrous!

    I tried to explain to them that the 7:1 drive pressure from a turbo pushing 31 psi vs the same turbo with different compressor pushing 15 psi making the same power would be the Same! To no avail............

    Moral of the story = they defeated themselves by placing an unrealistic goal of making X amount of power on X amount of boost instead of Respecting the environment of the build in front of them.

    #1 The engineers at Fiat and Chrysler already showed that to make 160hp on the multiair 1.4l platform 20psi boost pressure was required to also retain some semblance of drivability. To believe your going to make any significant increase in power at Less boost pressure was a big mistake.

    #2 They had already logged 7:1 pressure differential through the stock turbine wheel and housing @ 240-250whp. To believe that lower boost pressure on the intake side would equal lower drive pressure on the exhaust side at the same power and Through the same hot side was a Big mistake. (we went through this on TM some years ago and very few other than W.S. got it IMS)

    #3 Understand and respect the environment of the build in front of you! Generally speaking, as an engine gets smaller and smaller, the characteristics of the turbocharger become reversed.

    Big V-8 = low pressure compressor with huge turbine wheel and housing that flows large amounts of exhaust at relatively low pressure and low operating speeds. (120-150,000rpm for eg) This turbo Can't operate Efficiently at High boost pressures! (eg 20ishpsi or less)

    Small displacement 4 cyl = High pressure compressor to be able to Sustain boost pressure through restrictive environment and smaller turbine wheel/ housing that operates at much higher pressure and rpm. (170,000+rpm) This turbo Can't operate Efficiently at Low boost pressures! (eg, 20ish psi or More)

    There is far more to it than just this, but in a nut shell, Don't shoot yourself in the foot by believing that that the boost pressure # Alone is all there is to Efficiency!

    Good on you Harry, that you discovered that the B-trim wheel is less efficient for our particular 8v's than the E wheels above 15psi

    Robert Mclellan
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  10. #50
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Damn I didn't know you could make nearly 250whp with a stock turbo 1.4t. Thats pretty nutty for that tiny little engine.

  11. #51
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    Damn I didn't know you could make nearly 250whp with a stock turbo 1.4t. Thats pretty nutty for that tiny little engine.
    Pretty sure Dynojet and never track proven so take it for what it is.

    There tune with bolt-ons was supposed to be 220WHP IMS. 27lbs boost, after grenading test stock turbo at 31psi.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  12. #52
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    You have to Rev to get more work done ultimately. So you need some top end for HP. Next is flow. So if the system is working, lowe pressure differential to zero. Then you look at a realistic psi per boost goal and match that to the compressor map. A balance of volume at that goal pressure. Given of course there system works right again. A local here does 407 whp on his NSRT4 with 15 psi of boost. A lot of flow with porting and cams, a big turbo that flows right at that target volume / psi. The BMF intake of course makes the engine work right so you can look close to 16v maps. But I have no doubt you could make 200 HP na with a bmf. The na starting point with most is about 120 HP with a built 1 piece car. This chosen your turbo for you by map alone

  13. #53
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    I have to wonder who's grandma would want a turbo upgrade for her dart ?

    1.4 litre waste of time

    did tork go bye bye before or after the dart line did - there might be a reason they're gone in that

  14. #54
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post
    I have to wonder who's grandma would want a turbo upgrade for her dart ?

    1.4 litre waste of time

    did tork go bye bye before or after the dart line did - there might be a reason they're gone in that
    The 1.4 turbo makes more torque than a glhs.

  15. #55
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    - but almost nobody cares ..

  16. #56
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post
    - but almost nobody cares ..
    Between the Fiat 500's and 124 spiders, I'd bet there are far more people modifying the 1.4 turbo than our 2.2/2.5's.

  17. #57
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    I saw a few of the 500's when they first came out and still see one , once in a while

    as for darts I've seen 4 or 5 total

    those fish don't swim .. or sell

    but to be honest I've never given a fig for a chrysler that ISN'T a chrysler including the charger, challenger and 300

    if I wanted obsolete benz engineering I'd just buy an old used benz - sorry

    as for ANYTHING fiat
    ..LOL

    sorry I'm not gonna love everything just because it has a "mopar" tag on it

    hell , your great american manufacturing giant isn't even american owned and hasn't been for 20-25 years
    that's just sad , really sad

  18. #58
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Our cars are far more obsolete than a new charger lol. I can't even get window seals for my lancer. Now THATS sad.

  19. #59
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    Love my magnum, and my wife's Jeep GC. When we get them all paid off, we can save up some for a down payment and get a Trackhawk

  20. #60
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    Re: Do you own a BMF? Status update please!

    We live in a world where FCA makes a 800hp challenger that could easily be driven across the country and a 700hp SUV. That's pretty badass to me. Not to mention the SRT8 Durango that can run 12's or tow almost 9000lbs.

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