sooooooo the bmf intake

[acannell]

comparing the BMF to a ported 2 piece is comparing apples to oranges. a more realistic comparison would be a BMF vs a ported lower half of a 2 piece with one of the available plenums attached.

In that comparison, you'll find the BMF has significantly bigger plenum volume, much larger cross section and shorter runners, and costs about the same. Plus it has removable fuel rail mounts which allow easy changes to be made to use custom fuel rails or injectors that aren't stock-compatible.

wont fit with the Saginaw style pump. if someone has to replace the power steering pump because the original one wont fit that kind of negates the cost advantage.

I got a ZF pump with a bracket off the forum a few months ago for I think $25 shipped? That was probably a great deal and more likely $50 shipped is typical. So I dont see how this is really a major disadvantage of the BMF. The engine will already be apart, and most likely, someone doing a major power build who is keeping power steering will likely be considering rebuilding/replacing the steering pump anyway. Plus, you can sell your old pump. So in the end, its likely to be a zero cost swap that was going to be done anyway. A switch to ZF has other benefits that are handy at this power level as well, like room for a header and/or larger centerline radius downpipe arc.

no knock sensor provision without having to buy a second part and drill and tap the cylinder head.

I am not in a position to test a knock sensor mount and verify its performance. The BMF intake is 100% made from scratch and does not reuse any stock castings, so thats why the stock knock sensor mount is no longer present in a BMF install. However, I have made available a CNC machined knock sensor mount, the KSM, which is my best guess as far as a functional knock sensor mount that duplicates the stock one in function and location. Its optional and not included with the BMF because I understand some people may want to do their own thing as far as thats concerned, and save the cost of the extra mount. There have been several ideas in that regard and I'm sure we'll be seeing a few implemented by BMF clientele.

Drilling and tapping the cylinder head for the KSM is a very easy procedure that even a mechanical novice could do. At the build complexity level that justifies a BMF, its not even on the radar as far as something to worry about.

a shop owner who would be considering selling this product to customers its a question they have to know the answer to.

Apparently not. I've made no promises to anyone about performance beyond the BMF's physical specifications. If you lined up all the BMF customers and me, you would find that I am probably the least experienced in engine building and racing out of all of them. The BMF was not really designed by me as far as its performance. I observed what smart and experienced people were saying and what seemed to be the "want", and followed that trend, involving people in the discussion and seeing what made them excited and tried to engineer it in Solidworks. My expertise was more figuring out how to make it a reality and low priced. So the BMF is sort of a crowdsourced design, distilling what the best minds on the forums had to say, and at the opposite end, what I thought had to be done to make it a real part people could buy.

If you have some ideas about how the BMF should be different, I'm all ears. I dont think Saginaw pump fitment and not having to drill and tap two holes is really significant. Neither effect performance (well actually, fitting the Saginaw would require a smaller plenum and a much harsher wall to cyl #1, so it would be a negative). If those kinds of things are on your priorities list then the BMF is probably not appropriate for your build.

[crusty shadow]

please don't take my previous post as me trashing your work- it wasn't meant to come off that way.

If those kinds of things are on your priorities list then the BMF is probably not appropriate for your build.

what my priorities are in my build are overall power output from 4000-8000 rpm. What I need to see is hard data. I need to see what it flows on the bench. I need to see what the pressure differential is going through the top end of the engine. I need to see air intake temps- heat soak?. I need to see dyno numbers comparing it to other available options. I can not spend money on anything that is untested or has no usable performance data to go along with it.

im not opposed to ditching my ported lower half/ custom plenum that I have several hundred dollars invested in if there is something that will work better than what I have already spent money on.

if you want my money I gotta see some numbers first.

[acannell]

please don't take my previous post as me trashing your work- it wasn't meant to come off that way.




what my priorities are in my build are overall power output from 4000-8000 rpm. What I need to see is hard data. I need to see what it flows on the bench. I need to see what the pressure differential is going through the top end of the engine. I need to see air intake temps- heat soak?. I need to see dyno numbers comparing it to other available options. I can not spend money on anything that is untested or has no usable performance data to go along with it.

im not opposed to ditching my ported lower half/ custom plenum that I have several hundred dollars invested in if there is something that will work better than what I have already spent money on.

if you want my money I gotta see some numbers first.

Fair enough. I dont think you're trashing my work, you have concerns and I'm just putting my two cent. I would also like to see data, there just isn't any yet. Hopefully the folks who bought BMF's for their crazy builds will start racing and dynoing and we'll get some juicy info. Its got to happen eventually.

As far as heat soak, I wasn't aware that was an issue even with our cast intakes. I remember doing back to back runs with a 1 piece at 28psi and the engine being VERY hot but the intake manifold being ice cold if you popped the hood right after.

The BMF weighs a couple pounds less than a stock 1 piece, and the volume is much larger with the walls further away from the air mass compared to the 1 or 2 piece intake, so I would think its safe to say any heat soak would be much less than the cast intakes with or without an aftermarket plenum. But is it really an issue with the cast intakes at all?

Everyone has their own standard for how they make build decisions, but if it helps at all, here are the people who bought a BMF without seeing any numbers first:

(multiple entries mean they bought more than one)

iTurbo
Vigo
Old Man Jones
LaserDad
stewdaddy23
omniluvr
shelbyvnt2
The Pope
The Pope
88C/S
tryingbe
GLHNSLHT2
Turbulence
Moparmark1
GLHT_yeah_baby!
moparzrule
k03hemi
k03hemi
Shadow
k03hemi
signsoflife22
Chrysler GS -89
Reeves
Twon1977
lancerman23
shackwrrr
shmedley
coronet2fast
coronet2fast
Stonetona

[Vigo]

as a consumer its a question I have to know the answer to.

So find out? If you're not willing to buy one and try it you'll just have to wait until someone else does because acannell didn't build it specifically for his own car and he doesn't have multiple vehicles sitting around just for product testing, nor does he make enough money selling the parts at such cheap prices to go through all the hassle of putting together a representative test setup and taking it to the track and dyno just to make the small number of people who care happy when so far 100% of his actual paying customer's are ok figuring it out on their own. It is what it is..

[shackwrrr]

Here's a comparison.

Acannell's intake runs roughly 600 bucks retail (current pricing) has a nice design and is hand fabricated and cnc machined but is not dyno tested or guaranteed to make any gains.

This cosworth intake
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/-...YFOxoCx3Xw_wcB

Runs at 1200 bucks Is an ok design, not hand fabricated but it is dyno tested. Look at the price difference.

In other words, if you want dyno tested, back to back tests, 100% guarantee on it will make X amount of power and that makes you feel more warm and fuzzy, it will cost roughly $18,000... (add 600 to every intake sold)

[Vigo]

And as soon as you go from $600 to anythin $1000+ you just lost 90% of potential customers in this community. We won't even spend a few hundred bucks on a set of injectors with actual known flow rates and latency.

[black86glhs]

He has the right to ask these things just like Asa has the right to promote his product. Telling him to go do it himself because nobody has yet or everybody is cheap is rather rude. It isn't a positive way to promote the intake.
I may have read it wrong, but it came across as do it yourself, f*cker.

[acannell]

Thank you for the support Vigo and shackwrrr!

I was planning on turning my daytona into a test bed to evaluate the BMF but I realized that by the time it gets finished someone else (or several someone elses) will be running the BMF in their own cars and sharing data. Plus, the build I could come up with wouldn't be exactly up to par with the BMF anyways.

The BMF would literally not exist without the couple dozen people who were willing to make their own educated guesses and back that up with their hard earned cash. I'm impressed that so many people seem to agree on what an intake like this needs to be.

Moparzrule has thawed out and is getting his car back in order, he really went wild last year getting it running and to the track, maybe we'll see some data from him soon. Plus I think hes trying to get it dyno tested as well.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...04#post1076604

[Vigo]

it came across as do it yourself, f*cker.

Basically. Didn't we just have a thread where it took 20 pages of stupid bickering before we got real info from one of the 'established' vendors? I quit watching that thread because it was annoying so i don't actually know.

Nobody is making real money here, and even the 'main' vendors give out dubious or no info, so all we're going to accomplish by holding a tiny garage manufacturer who isn't making money to standards that noone else is reaching, is to kill the goose and have no more small-run custom parts until the next sucker feels like coming in here and taking ---- from people for no money. It's obvious what the intake does. It provides a larger plenum, shorter runner, and larger runner CSA then anything else available. If someone doesn't like that they can do like Acannell did and design and build their own. Easy, right?

Just my .02.

[Mr overkill]

Holy dam. I am not asking about cost I am not asking any of that me as a customer has to be aware of a custom part will incure additional costs. Geezzzzz. My question was pointed to people who ALREADY actually bought the product not people who ----- and moan about it. ---- anyone doing a 350 hp plus build does not complain. Why because reliable hp costs

[shackwrrr]

He has the right to ask these things just like Asa has the right to promote his product. Telling him to go do it himself because nobody has yet or everybody is cheap is rather rude. It isn't a positive way to promote the intake.
I may have read it wrong, but it came across as do it yourself, f*cker.

In a round about way I meant that if testing was part of the product the price would be a lot higher. And yes we are all cheap and don't want to pay.

[tryingbe]

I would like to see Dyno results before and after vs. a factory 2 piece with the BMF intake being the only change.

That's a pipe dream for every available aftermarket part for any car.

Even if you pay me labor, material, fluid, time, dyno, & etc, I still wouldn't able to do it. Why?

Let's assume the BMF intake manifold does flow more air, you'll need to have calibration re-tune for the additional air, which means "only change" is no longer apply.
Just don't change the tune you say? Will you risk running the engine lean?

[glhs875]

That's a pipe dream for every available available part for any car.

Even if you pay me labor, material, fluid, time, dyno, & etc, I still wouldn't able to do it. Why?

Let's assume the BMF intake manifold does flow more air, you'll need to have calibration re-tune for the additional air... which means "only change" is no longer.

Well if a change in a calibration/engine managment is truly needed, then that is one thing that I would like to see! If no change is needed to the calibration, then what is the point. What I meant by only the change is the hard part/intake. not the possibility of a calibration tweak. I guess I will just keep my opinions to myself pertaining to this thread from now on.

[Vigo]

We all have wish lists but having parts be thoroughly tested on a platform that's really close to what your actual use will be almost never happens. Even people who have the same parts setups usually have varying amount and types of undiagnosed problems that make their setups behave differently.

I think what i've done over time is just try to find the common points that all the high-power setups have in common. Everyone i can think of that's made susbstantially over 400hp on an 8v have all modified their intake manifolds to have a larger plenum volume, shorter runners, larger runner csa, bigger throttle body elbow, etc. The BMF hits all those points and takes some of them further than anyone else has done so far. I feel like it's pretty well understood what the intake is going to do at high rpm and high power and i havent seen anyone who's actually BUILT their own intake dispute that the BMF does basically the same thing they were trying to accomplish.

The biggest unknown is whether it will do much of anything on a low-revving, low-power (i.e. 5500 rpm 250hp) setup. I'm vaguely interested in the answer to that, but at that point im also asking "why bother with a custom intake if you don't want to rev higher or make big power?".

I stick by what i originally said. If you dont plan to try to make power way past 5500 rpm you will probably not see a huge gain from a BMF. So if you're not looking at valvesprings and camshafts you probably don't 'need' the BMF either. Doesn't mean you shouldnt buy it just because it's pretty, though.

[acannell]

I think what i've done over time is just try to find the common points that all the high-power setups have in common. Everyone i can think of that's made susbstantially over 400hp on an 8v have all modified their intake manifolds to have a larger plenum volume, shorter runners, larger runner csa, bigger throttle body elbow, etc. The BMF hits all those points and takes some of them further than anyone else has done so far. I feel like it's pretty well understood what the intake is going to do at high rpm and high power and i havent seen anyone who's actually BUILT their own intake dispute that the BMF does basically the same thing they were trying to accomplish.

I couldn't say it any better. The BMF is exactly this, and that was the intent behind its design, along with some other things like swappable fuel rail mounts, no porting required, and low cost.

[black86glhs]

To clarify, I wasn't being crabby in my post, just pointing out that he can ask the questions. I think what Asa has done is awesome. Like many posts, it may have come across wrong.

[knownenemy]

Ah, the old emotions being assigned to posts issue. lol

It's surely cool. Vigo, and Asa are a couple of good guys AFAIK.
Asa, who I have much more experience with, is awesome!

Suggestion; when reading posts, the voice in my head is the robot type synth voice; all flat words.
This has helped me to detach any ill feelings or emotion from any posts.

[acannell]

Suggestion; when reading posts, the voice in my head is the robot type synth voice; all flat words.

lol

I wish I could have that voice for my GPS nav instead of the super whispery sexy voice that samsung thought made more sense and I can barely hear

[crusty shadow]

He has the right to ask these things just like Asa has the right to promote his product. Telling him to go do it himself because nobody has yet or everybody is cheap is rather rude. It isn't a positive way to promote the intake.
I may have read it wrong, but it came across as do it yourself, f*cker.

that was the exact impression that I had from the replies. Those replies give me the impression that I'm supposed to do all the testing at my own cost plus buying the manifold to see if it even works? If I as a customer am expected to do all the testing on a product which will cost time and money for a vendor who will then advertise those results I expect the product to be free in exchange for the testing and accompanying data.

I'll test your manifold and give every bit of data I collect on it up for everyone to see. I have a pretty wicked head on my engine- right along the lines of what you claim this manifold is designed to work with. I also run MSIII so tuning will be pretty simple and I will be able to datalog far more info than if someone were using a Mopar ecu with MPscan.

We have a Dynojet chassis dyno at my shop that I can use as much as I want on my own time. beyond that I will have costs such as gaskets, coolant, oil and filter etc to do the testing with so it still wont be totally free for me to do. i'll do this in exchange for one of your manifolds- even swap. it will cost you far less than if you were to pay outright for testing and its data that everyone wants to see.

[acannell]

that was the exact impression that I had from the replies. Those replies give me the impression that I'm supposed to do all the testing at my own cost plus buying the manifold to see if it even works? If I as a customer am expected to do all the testing on a product which will cost time and money for a vendor who will then advertise those results I expect the product to be free in exchange for the testing and accompanying data.

I'll test your manifold and give every bit of data I collect on it up for everyone to see. I have a pretty wicked head on my engine- right along the lines of what you claim this manifold is designed to work with. I also run MSIII so tuning will be pretty simple and I will be able to datalog far more info than if someone were using a Mopar ecu with MPscan.

We have a Dynojet chassis dyno at my shop that I can use as much as I want on my own time. beyond that I will have costs such as gaskets, coolant, oil and filter etc to do the testing with so it still wont be totally free for me to do. i'll do this in exchange for one of your manifolds- even swap. it will cost you far less than if you were to pay outright for testing and its data that everyone wants to see.

No thanks. I'm pretty sure the two dozen plus people who bought a BMF will eventually race and/or dyno it and post results, without expecting a free one. Just like they do with all kinds of other parts in their builds.