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Thread: need the 413 gurus please

  1. #21
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    I just did some research. The 2.4 flex plate will bolt up to the 2.2/2.5 crank BUT the outer diameter (including teeth) of the 2.4 flex plate measures 10 5/8" and the outer diameter of the 2.2/2.5 flex plate measures 11 3/4", same at the 3.8 41TE flex plate. I'm not 100% sure this is a 2.2/2.5 flex plate but I don't have any other engine parts for other engines lying around. I need somebody to measure the outer diameter of a 2.2/2.5 flex plate to see if I have the right one. If the 2.2/2.5 flex plate is 11 3/4" outer diameter it looks like it will be easier to modify for the 10" converter than the 2.4 flex plate.

  2. #22
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    I'll go measure one and post up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    What is your highway RPMS at the same MPH LU vs non LU?
    Since nobody but AJ seems to be running a LU with any sort of stress being put on it, seems like this thread just has to concentrate on the links he mentioned. If he doesn't get his testing done in time then its a big gamble.

    -----

    How much power/torque is this transmission supposed to stand up to? That would let people narrow down what you need and what you could do "extra".
    With the Neon converter, it wasn't that much, maybe 2-300 rpm. With the high stall and at higher speeds, I would see 500+ rpm drop. On long trips, aka highway, it was king.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Highway rpm in lockup can be found just using an online gearing calculator. If you know your final drive and tire size you can determine your rpm at any road speed in lockup. RPM out of lockup is going to depend on converter stall speed pretty heavily.

    Lockup is great because it lets you get away with having a loose converter without being in the slip zone during highway cruise.
    You can't calculate the rpm due to speed, load, brickwallness of vehicle, stall, head wind etc.

    The LU was awesome with the high stall until it died, kept my trans temps down big time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I am only wondering about Simon's actual real life differences. More interesting to hear experiences with a real life combo that worked for its purpose. If it just flashed to 3000 all the time out of lockup then its not so interesting. Wonder how that would do in a V6.
    See above,
    Last edited by turbovanmanČ; 04-11-2015 at 02:48 PM.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

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  3. #23
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please


  4. #24
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    IMO, 3 speed lockups like plain jane ATF better than ATF+3 or ATF+4.... Lockup shudder was a thing when ATF+3 was the recommended fluid, it was halfass locking, and slipping and locking, then they went to +4 and the shudder problems went away, guess why? It barely ever locked, it was still slipping most of the time, put power through that and it's toast. I went to plain ATF in about 2003 or 4, and could then tell by highway revs settling down it was indeed locking up, however, with latest recipe of half ATF and TDH and a bottle of lucas transmission fix, it was coming in like another gear change and dropping a good 300 RPM.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  5. #25
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    You can't calculate the rpm due to speed, load, brickwallness of vehicle, stall, head wind etc.
    With a locked converter, yes you can. A locked up torque converter WILL hit the same numbers a gearing calculator spits out unless you're using it wrong or your converter clutch is slipping.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  6. #26
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    With a locked converter, yes you can. A locked up torque converter WILL hit the same numbers a gearing calculator spits out unless you're using it wrong or your converter clutch is slipping.
    Locked yes, unlocked no. I thought you were talking unlocked to locked drop. A locked converter is just like a manual trans, as you know.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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  7. #27
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    I just found another flex plate and it's the same as the one I wasn't sure if it was 2.2/2.5 so there is NO way I have multiple flex plates that aren't 2.2/2.5. I'm going on vacation at the end of the month. When I get back I'm going to order a 10" converter for my '85 wagon.

  8. #28
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Stock TD flex plate is 10 3/4 not including the ring gear, total diameter including ring gear is 11 3/4"
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  9. #29
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Just thinking, stock line pressure may not be enough to hold a convertor locked with unstock power, don't know what the exact relationship is there, but suspect that with a 250HP motor you'd need at least another 10psi of line pressure so it didn't slip when you push on the loud pedal.

    Not sure if anybody has looked into valve body mods just to increase apply pressure of the lockup clutch, for when you really get the power up there. (Because I'm thinking that you'd want it higher still than might be good to run line pressure for everything for)
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  10. #30
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I just found another flex plate and it's the same as the one I wasn't sure if it was 2.2/2.5 so there is NO way I have multiple flex plates that aren't 2.2/2.5. I'm going on vacation at the end of the month. When I get back I'm going to order a 10" converter for my '85 wagon.
    So what is the final conclusion on the flex plate fitment, sizes etc? You mentioned 41te flexplates.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  11. #31
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Interesting thought on line pressure and the lock up. I wonder if too mutch would distort the converter itself, or just fix the issue?

    Mike
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

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  12. #32
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 View Post
    Just thinking, stock line pressure may not be enough to hold a convertor locked with unstock power, don't know what the exact relationship is there, but suspect that with a 250HP motor you'd need at least another 10psi of line pressure so it didn't slip when you push on the loud pedal.

    Not sure if anybody has looked into valve body mods just to increase apply pressure of the lockup clutch, for when you really get the power up there. (Because I'm thinking that you'd want it higher still than might be good to run line pressure for everything for)
    My line pressure is in the 80-90 psi range. What what I got from my converter builder, it's a seal and cover problem. The cover flexes and blows out the seal. That's why you need to go to a 10" because the cover is billet and a 9" billet cover is not available.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    So what is the final conclusion on the flex plate fitment, sizes etc? You mentioned 41te flexplates.
    What I've come up with is the 2.2/2.5 flex plate is a larger diameter than the 2.4. The 2.2/2.5 f.p. isn't flat like the 2.4 f.p. but because the 2.2/2.5 f.p. is larger it "should" mate up to the 10" converter fine with only having to drill new holes. I mentioned the 41TE f.p. because I have one to use as a template to drill my 2.4 f.p. for the larger 10" torque converter bolt pattern. The 41TE f.p. is the same outer diameter as the 2.2/2.5 f.p. the only difference is there is a tone ring welded onto the 41TE f.p. because of the crank sensor. (Side note, I didn't check the crank bolt pattern of the 41TE f.p. Maybe we can just use the 41TE f.p. with the 2.2/2.5 and not have to worry about drilling new holes in the 2.2/2.5 f.p.) When I get back from vacation (April 28) I'm going to order a 10" converter for my '85 2.5 turbo wagon. Once I get it and confirm fitment I'll post my findings and we'll have a reliable 2.2/2.5 LU converter.

  13. #33
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    My line pressure is in the 80-90 psi range. What what I got from my converter builder, it's a seal and cover problem. The cover flexes and blows out the seal. That's why you need to go to a 10" because the cover is billet and a 9" billet cover is not available.




    What I've come up with is the 2.2/2.5 flex plate is a larger diameter than the 2.4. The 2.2/2.5 f.p. isn't flat like the 2.4 f.p. but because the 2.2/2.5 f.p. is larger it "should" mate up to the 10" converter fine with only having to drill new holes. I mentioned the 41TE f.p. because I have one to use as a template to drill my 2.4 f.p. for the larger 10" torque converter bolt pattern. The 41TE f.p. is the same outer diameter as the 2.2/2.5 f.p. the only difference is there is a tone ring welded onto the 41TE f.p. because of the crank sensor. (Side note, I didn't check the crank bolt pattern of the 41TE f.p. Maybe we can just use the 41TE f.p. with the 2.2/2.5 and not have to worry about drilling new holes in the 2.2/2.5 f.p.) When I get back from vacation (April 28) I'm going to order a 10" converter for my '85 2.5 turbo wagon. Once I get it and confirm fitment I'll post my findings and we'll have a reliable 2.2/2.5 LU converter.
    That would be pretty cool if there was a bolt and go option. So this means that the 41te flex plate bolts to these 10" converters. What is this 10" converter originally for?
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  14. #34
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    v6 4pds only.

    And SOME v6 4spds actually got the smaller converter from the factory such as the 2.5s and some 3.3/3.8 Sport caravans. All the 3.0/4spds should have the big converter.

    I personally dont think you need to line up the two flexplates by their bolt holes to transfer the pattern and run into those welding issues. The converter snout centers in the back of the crankshaft so all you really need to do in my opinion is center the two flexplates by their center bores and rotate them so that the new bolt holes for the converter end up in the easiest spot to deal with and just drill them there.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  15. #35
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    That would be pretty cool if there was a bolt and go option. So this means that the 41te flex plate bolts to these 10" converters. What is this 10" converter originally for?
    Yes and I yes. I checked the crank bolt pattern and it looks like the 41TE flex plate will work with the 2.2/2.5 and the A413.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    v6 4pds only.

    And SOME v6 4spds actually got the smaller converter from the factory such as the 2.5s and some 3.3/3.8 Sport caravans. All the 3.0/4spds should have the big converter.

    I personally dont think you need to line up the two flexplates by their bolt holes to transfer the pattern and run into those welding issues. The converter snout centers in the back of the crankshaft so all you really need to do in my opinion is center the two flexplates by their center bores and rotate them so that the new bolt holes for the converter end up in the easiest spot to deal with and just drill them there.
    I used the 41TE f.p. to drill holes in the 2.4 f.p. The 41TE f.p. has both the 10" and 9" converter bolts holes so I used the 9" holes to drill the 10" holes.

    What I've seen is the 40TE came with the 9" converter and four cylinders and the 41TE came with the 10" converter and V6's.

  16. #36
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    I have a 2.0L Neon here, just changing out the 4 speed, it has the smaller flex plate, I"ll measure it.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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  17. #37
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    The converter is a 10" unit.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  18. #38
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    If it's a 2.0 Neon, chances are it's a 40TE not a 41TE. And if it's a 40TE chances are it's a 9" converter. I measured a 2.0/40TE converter and thought it was a 10" but was wrong. If the converter bolt pattern matches the 2.2/2.5 converter bolt pattern it's a 9" converter. A 9" converter is actually a 9.5" converter. And I think a 10" converter is actually 10.5" or 10.75".
    Last edited by A.J.; 04-16-2015 at 01:02 AM.

  19. #39
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    If it's a 2.0 Neon, chances are it's a 40TE not a 41TE. And if it's a 40TE chances are it's a 9" converter. I measured a 2.0/40TE converter and thought it was a 10" but was wrong. If the converter bolt pattern matches the 2.2/2.5 converter bolt pattern it's a 9" converter. A 9" converter is actually a 9.5" converter. And I think a 10" converter is actually 10.5" or 10.75".
    I'll remeasure.

    Its pretty tight inside the bellhousing, not sure if you could fit a bigger TC in there.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  20. #40
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    A 10" isn't only for v6 the 10" fits a lot of other applications and has much more aftermarket support

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