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Thread: need the 413 gurus please

  1. #1
    Hybrid booster
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    need the 413 gurus please

    Ok so I'm a few months out from restarting the stalled build


    I'm looking a building up the lockup 413 this way I can lock it up in the street. (Lmk what you think)

    I'm looking to put this into the mini

    I need a list of MUST HAVES
    I need a list of should have

    Also who is reliable to weld the cases to beef them up (I have 3 )

  2. #2
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    The 9" lock-up converter that comes in the A413 and 31TH is a piece of crap. The lock-up portion of the converter WILL fail. I had Hughes build me one and the lock-up went out twice. The lock-up on my cheap off the self converter that's in my wagon is starting to go out. Simon has a Hughes LU and it failed. My converter builder (Suncoast out of Florida) told me the reason they fail is the cover flexes and blows out the seal. The fix is a billet cover but one isn't available in 9" so I had to go to a 10" converter. But in doing that I had to have the welds ground off of the converter side of the flex plate to fit the larger converter to the flex plate and drill new holes. The 2.2/2.5 flex plate isn't flat so what I did to my 2.4 flex plate can't be done to the 2.2/2.5 flex plate. I need to see if a 2.4 flex plate has the same crank bolt pattern as the 2.2/2.5 and if it is then it's possible to put a 10" LU converter behind the 2.2/2.5 and the LU will be reliable. You can see what I did to my 2.4 flex plate here: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ing&highlight=

    If you do wire up your LU to be used on the street do not use it under boost. They barely last under cruise only, it will only go out faster under boost.

  3. #3
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Hum. Ok if I stay with a non lockup (didn't realize the upgraded ones were still junk) then I'll have to keep a stall where it's streetable.

  4. #4
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Aj and Simon I never got a final answer back when. But what gear ratio is good for the mini I'm trying not to go to low where it puts on extra stress on the case but not high where I'm tacking crazy rpms

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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    The 9" lock-up converter that comes in the A413 and 31TH is a piece of crap. The lock-up portion of the converter WILL fail. I had Hughes build me one and the lock-up went out twice. The lock-up on my cheap off the self converter that's in my wagon is starting to go out. Simon has a Hughes LU and it failed. My converter builder (Suncoast out of Florida) told me the reason they fail is the cover flexes and blows out the seal. The fix is a billet cover but one isn't available in 9" so I had to go to a 10" converter. But in doing that I had to have the welds ground off of the converter side of the flex plate to fit the larger converter to the flex plate and drill new holes. The 2.2/2.5 flex plate isn't flat so what I did to my 2.4 flex plate can't be done to the 2.2/2.5 flex plate. I need to see if a 2.4 flex plate has the same crank bolt pattern as the 2.2/2.5 and if it is then it's possible to put a 10" LU converter behind the 2.2/2.5 and the LU will be reliable. You can see what I did to my 2.4 flex plate here: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ing&highlight=

    If you do wire up your LU to be used on the street do not use it under boost. They barely last under cruise only, it will only go out faster under boost.
    So stock LU fails under boost or fails under normal driving when you combine that with some occasional beyond OEM HP? Stock LU + stock HP seems to work in ancient A670's. Using lockup in boost would be the best though....10" billet will do that and race? I would see lockup + boost used mostly for mild freeway passing or something like that and not all out unless it was a dedicated track car.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  6. #6
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr overkill View Post
    Aj and Simon I never got a final answer back when. But what gear ratio is good for the mini I'm trying not to go to low where it puts on extra stress on the case but not high where I'm tacking crazy rpms
    I don't know what a good gear ratio is. I'm using a 31TH out of a '98 Caravan 2.4 N/A because I figured with the weights being close it'd be a good place to start. I can tell you what my side gear and ring and pinions are but I don't even know what my gear ratio. I've asked how to figure it out but never got an answer. I think it's 3.55:1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    So stock LU fails under boost or fails under normal driving when you combine that with some occasional beyond OEM HP?
    Yes the 9" LU converter sucks. If you like pulling transmissions then be my guest, mess around with the 9" LU converter. I've had my fill so no more 9' LU converters for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Stock LU + stock HP seems to work in ancient A670's.
    Who has one? Maybe it failed and if they're not "in tune" with their vehicle they don't even know it's not working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Using lockup in boost would be the best though....10" billet will do that and race? I would see lockup + boost used mostly for mild freeway passing or something like that and not all out unless it was a dedicated track car.
    In theory yes. In my experience with my van and LU I get much faster acceleration with the LU off. When I'm on the highway and I start to pull a hill, my LU disengages just before I hit 0 vacuum/boost. If I have the manual LU switch on and I start going into boost is bogs down and doesn't accelerate as fast as it does with it off. Maybe it's because I'm not hammering on it because it is only a single disc LU and I've had my trans out more times than I can recall trying to figure out my LU and I don't want to chance blowing it out again. The converter builder I talked to said the 10" "should" be able to handle a couple 100 horse power but since my LU is for economy and cruising highways, I leave it off under boost.

  7. #7
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Either my friend's LU converter is a unicorn, or the clutches in those converters are junk. The weak point in his LU 413 was the input shaft. They wouldn't hold up to high 300 / low 400whp very long with the converter locked, kept snapping them. Unlocked things were ok, but only half a dozen pulls with it locked would doom the shaft. Vehicle is a CSXT with a 2.5L hybrid.
    “If the people of the nation understood our banking and monetary system, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” -Henry Ford

  8. #8
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    I'm only looking to lock it up while cruising down the highway to keep rpms down

  9. #9
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    IF that's the case you should be fine with stock lockup converter. I dont think they fail any more often than anything else under normal use. Normal use means they come out of lockup once you put enough load on it, like AJ described.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  10. #10
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Not going to a stocker I'm gonna look into a huges or some other vendor that knows these converters and then build it strong

  11. #11
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Chrysler had problems with stock LU converters with stock horsepower. The fix was capping the LU plug and putting a different cal in it to keep the light off. It even had an emission label placed under the hood documenting the "fix."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr overkill View Post
    Not going to a stocker I'm gonna look into a huges or some other vendor that knows these converters and then build it strong
    If you are going to throw your money away on a Hughes 9" converter, I have a Hughes 3500 stall LU that Suncoast fixed for me. I paid Hughes close to $600 for this converter and I sent it to Suncoast so they could match the stall. They fixed it for between $300-$400, I have to find the receipt to know for sure. If you want it I'll let it go for what Suncoast charged me plus shipping. Shipping from AZ to FL was about $50.

  12. #12
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Who has one? Maybe it failed and if they're not "in tune" with their vehicle they don't even know it's not working.
    A couple million people?

    Seems pretty obvious to me the LU is engaged, you can feel it. v6 converters are tighter anyways but they don't need boost built up to move forward. The a670 feels like a manual transmission in 3rd gear once it locks up. That is my only experience with a 3 speed beyond a terrible 80's non LU a413 slushbox T1 new yorker. Those converters feel "wheezy" and that must all be to cover up turbo lag which is still really bad on a t1 garret draw through.
    I think 4 cylinder turbo applications are often abusing the transmission and LU if that is really the issue.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 04-16-2015 at 01:27 PM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  13. #13
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    We seem to have gotten hung up on converter talk so for now let's look at the actual Trans for now while I look at this issue

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr overkill View Post
    We seem to have gotten hung up on converter talk so for now let's look at the actual Trans for now while I look at this issue
    I'm just trying to help you avoid spending $1000ish on converters and pulling your trans multiple times like I have trying to get it right. When are you looking at installing your trans? Hopefully I'll have the answer if a 10" LU converter in a 2.2/2.5 question solved by then. I want to put one in my wagon but right now time constraints are preventing me from getting that moving.

    As far as upgrades start here: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...l-in-one-place

    After reading that, anything you don't understand then ask.

    As far as case welding, this is what I did: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ase&highlight=

  15. #15
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    The Trans is after 8 finish the motor and I'm not doing that until end of Jun so I have time to gather info and parts

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    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanman²'s Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    A.J. is right, I trashed my Hughs in short order, not F'in happy. The best converter I got and one that actually lasted was a 2000+ stock Neon LU converter, got it from TCS. It has bearings from the factory BUT its a low stall, and I never killed the LU. It stalls at 3000 so a big turbo won't like it but it gave me the best power on the street and the best MPG.

    Gearing I've tried is stock R+P with the .91 gears and currently running a newer Caravan R+P and running around a 3.3 ratio vs 3.05 for stock turbo van. I like both but the LU makes all the MPG difference on the highway, its nice.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman² View Post
    A.J. is right, I trashed my Hughs in short order, not F'in happy. The best converter I got and one that actually lasted was a 2000+ stock Neon LU converter, got it from TCS. It has bearings from the factory BUT its a low stall, and I never killed the LU. It stalls at 3000 so a big turbo won't like it but it gave me the best power on the street and the best MPG.

    Gearing I've tried is stock R+P with the .91 gears and currently running a newer Caravan R+P and running around a 3.3 ratio vs 3.05 for stock turbo van. I like both but the LU makes all the MPG difference on the highway, its nice.
    What is your highway RPMS at the same MPH LU vs non LU?
    Since nobody but AJ seems to be running a LU with any sort of stress being put on it, seems like this thread just has to concentrate on the links he mentioned. If he doesn't get his testing done in time then its a big gamble.

    -----

    How much power/torque is this transmission supposed to stand up to? That would let people narrow down what you need and what you could do "extra".
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  18. #18
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Highway rpm in lockup can be found just using an online gearing calculator. If you know your final drive and tire size you can determine your rpm at any road speed in lockup. RPM out of lockup is going to depend on converter stall speed pretty heavily.

    Lockup is great because it lets you get away with having a loose converter without being in the slip zone during highway cruise.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  19. #19
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    I'm a non- lockup fan personally. BUT if I had to have a lock up converter, I would add a 2-4 psi normally closed pressure switch in the wire going to the lock up for a little insurance.

    The reason I don't use lock up are easy, I wanted a higher stall, I don't tow and I don't care about fuel economy with my shadow.

  20. #20
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    Re: need the 413 gurus please

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Highway rpm in lockup can be found just using an online gearing calculator. If you know your final drive and tire size you can determine your rpm at any road speed in lockup. RPM out of lockup is going to depend on converter stall speed pretty heavily.

    Lockup is great because it lets you get away with having a loose converter without being in the slip zone during highway cruise.
    I am only wondering about Simon's actual real life differences. More interesting to hear experiences with a real life combo that worked for its purpose. If it just flashed to 3000 all the time out of lockup then its not so interesting. Wonder how that would do in a V6.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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