89 Daytona losing power

[83scamp]

OK, hoping somebody has seen this before. I drove my new-to-me 89 Daytona ES turbo to work this morning. Been driving it around town all weekend, and it's run fine. I have a 42 mile drive to work. About half way there, all of a sudden I lose power. Acts like it's not getting fuel. Idles fine, but give it gas, and it drops off... I pull over, check for pressure at the fuel rail. At first I get air, then fuel. Thinking I had somehow vapor locked it(not sure how with a return style system?), I start it back up, and it runs fine. About 4 miles down the road, same thing again, I lose power. I pull over, turn the car off, check the fuel rail again, fuel squirts out immediately, so it's not vapor locked. Start it back up, and it runs fine. Get about 2 miles down the road, lose power again, this time I just shut it off for about 10 seconds, fire it up, and it runs fine. Go about 10 miles before it acts up again. Again, shut it off for a few seconds, and then it runs fine. This gets me to work where it starts to act up just as I pull in the lot(about another 10 miles). I park it, and will go try it at lunch.

I have no codes stored, so the computer isn't seeing an issue. I've check all vacuum lines, and everything is good as far as I can see.


A little history on the car:
I bought it 3 weeks ago knowing it hadn't run in a couple of years. Spent the first two weeks fixing all the hillbilly screw ups of the previous owners, who never did get it to run. It has a new parts store fuel pump(hillbillies bought it), new sock, new filter, and I thoroughly cleaned the tank before I put the new parts in. I also flushed the lines for about 3 minutes before I attempted the first start once I had corrected the issues I found with the car.

Up until this point, the car has had great power, and ran like a top. I'm actually really impressed with how much go this 2.5 has.

So, where do I go from here?

Thanks,

[cordes]

Does the tach cut out when it loses power? If so, it is most likely the HEP. Do you lose any other systems when this happens; like the HVAC, or radio etc?

[83scamp]

Does the tach cut out when it loses power? If so, it is most likely the HEP. Do you lose any other systems when this happens; like the HVAC, or radio etc?

Nope,


Nothing else cuts out.

[85boostbox]

How much gas do you have in it? Could be the sock fell off and your sucking air.

I had a problem in my old wagon one time from a parts store fuel pump. It would cavitate the fuel so bad in the tank that it would actually vapor lock itself. Did also what you describe. I would literally have to drain all the "vapor" out of the rail to get it to start back up and run. Might be worth looking into.

[2.216VTurbo]

Whats the vacuum like when it's acting up, is it lower than 'usual' Is this the stock 25 year old Cat that's been pressed back into service??

[83scamp]

How much gas do you have in it? Could be the sock fell off and your sucking air.

I had a problem in my old wagon one time from a parts store fuel pump. It would cavitate the fuel so bad in the tank that it would actually vapor lock itself. Did also what you describe. I would literally have to drain all the "vapor" out of the rail to get it to start back up and run. Might be worth looking into.

It's over 1/2 a tank. I put 10 gallons in it and have driven less than 100 miles. The gauge says 1/2 tank, but like a lot of stuff, I'm not trusting it until I've got some miles on it... The Odometer doesn't work(one of many items on the list), but the speedo does.

The pedal just goes "soft". The engine doesn't quit, it just won't rev. When it does this, I can park on the side of the road, and it will sit there and idle. Maybe the pump did suck something up... I tried to be really careful and clean everything before starting it the first time. Maybe I missed something. Or fresh gas broke something loose in a line....

- - - Updated - - -

Whats the vacuum like when it's acting up, is it lower than 'usual' Is this the stock 25 year old Cat that's been pressed back into service??

Going by the turbo bost gauge, vacuum is good, around 18 at idle. I didn't notice it changing when it started acting up.

I'm assuming it's the original cat, given the looks of the system. I plan on removing that before too long...

[cordes]

It certainly sounds like it's not getting enough fuel. Try to dead head the pump by pinching off the rubber return line at the rail with a pair of pliers while you have a gauge on it. It should easily peg a 100PSI gauge if it's still good.

[83scamp]

It certainly sounds like it's not getting enough fuel. Try to dead head the pump by pinching off the rubber return line at the rail with a pair of pliers while you have a gauge on it. It should easily peg a 100PSI gauge if it's still good.

I think that's the next step. I have to get a gauge first... Hoping one of the local parts stores has one I can use in the parking lot...

[2.216VTurbo]

Ya gotta have fuel for these motors but since you already did a careful install of a new pump(yeah it could be bad right outs the box) and when you establish *if* you sufficient pressure/flow, I'd still be suspicious of the cat heating up and choking the motor into submission. Twice in this TM hobby of mine in the last 25 years or so I've had to cut a windo into the front side of the cat to get me home until it could be replaced. One time was on my back late at night with a sharp cold chisel and a hammer, other time I did have access to a good drill and a 1/2" drill bit. Both times it got me home

[83scamp]

Ya gotta have fuel for these motors but since you already did a careful install of a new pump(yeah it could be bad right outs the box) and when you establish *if* you sufficient pressure/flow, I'd still be suspicious of the cat heating up and choking the motor into submission. Twice in this TM hobby of mine in the last 25 years or so I've had to cut a windo into the front side of the cat to get me home until it could be replaced. One time was on my back late at night with a sharp cold chisel and a hammer, other time I did have access to a good drill and a 1/2" drill bit. Both times it got me home

I never really considered that until you said something. Thank you. Fortunately, I live in a part of the country that doesn't have sniffer rules, so a $8 piece of straight pipe and a couple of clamps, and I know my problem won't be the cat...

I'll start with the fuel pressure, and if that isn't it, I'll move on to the cat... I called the local O'Reilly's, and they rent the fuel pressure test gauge... I can do that in the parking lot...

[83scamp]

Stopped at O'reilly's and picked up a pressure gauge. With the engine idling it's holding about 48 psi. It does go up when I open the throttle, so it is changing with manifold pressure. When I pinch the return, it pegs the gauge. I assume I'm OK with that? I'll check it static after a while when I have time to jump the ASD relay. I did buy a section of 2 1/2" pipe and a couple of clamps to get rid of the cat later tonight...

I lost power 6 times on the way home, each time, a quick stop, turn off the car, and restart it cured the issue. Ran fine for a while after that. I find that really weird...


OK, I had a minute, so I went out and manually activated the ASD relay. STatic it holds right at 55 psi. SO I'm good there. I did notice a "hot" smell in the garage. I think Alan may be onto something. Maybe the cat is plugged...

[cordes]

If you can peg the gauge, then I'm 100% with Alan on this one.

- - - Updated - - -

The only other thing I could see would be a severe restriction in the air inlet. I've seen that a time or two when the inlet to the turbo was blocked somehow.

[83scamp]

If you can peg the gauge, then I'm 100% with Alan on this one.

- - - Updated - - -

The only other thing I could see would be a severe restriction in the air inlet. I've seen that a time or two when the inlet to the turbo was blocked somehow.

I've had all that off, I know that isn't it...

Keep the suggestions coming, I'll whip this car into shape before it's all over with...

I've never let a car beat me, and I'm not starting with this one...

I do really appreciate everybodies input here. Makes diagnosing a lot easier. Plus confirms a lot of what I was thinking.

[2.216VTurbo]

Get out the sawzall! At least you don't have the smog police breathing down your neck over it

[83scamp]

OK, back for more advice.

Cat is gone, replaced with a straight pipe. Driveability issue is not gone but changed a little. Not sure if that is good or not? I no longer have the "hot" smell when I park the car, so I assume that was the cat. It looked open after I cut it off... It didn't lose power to the point where I had to pull off the to the side and restart it.

Now, it pretty much falls on its face anytime I stand on it. If I take it gentle and accellerate, it will keep on going, although there is a little hesitation and missing. Had it up to 70 tonight, and it will hold it, but romp on it from a stop(or any speed), and it falls flat. Also, I was under the impression that the 89 TI would only build about 9 psi of boost. The few times tonight I was able to get it moving, the needle went over to about 13 psi. I know these gauges are notoriously inaccurate, and it doesn't feel like it's going into over boost shut down. In fact, most of the time when it falls flat, it barely gets to positive boost. It misses, and bucks a little, and even backfired once.

I have the factory powertrain diagnostic manual, but it's useless unless you have a DRB II. Plus, I'm not getting any codes. Is it possible I have a couple plugged injectors? I have a spare used set I bought several years ago. P/N is correct for 89 TI. Should I try those?

I made an attempt to check timing tonight.... yeah right... anybody got a hint how to check timing on a TI? The air cleaner & intake hoses are all in the way of the timing window! I don't think that is the issue. It idles fine, sits there and purrs like a kitten...

Not sure what else to try guys, any other hints would be greatly appreciated...

[cordes]

At this point I'm thinking cam timing. Have you looked at the belt? What do the plugs look like? You've deduced that you have fuel and air. Time to determine if the spark is strong and the compression is in the right spot.

[83scamp]

At this point I'm thinking cam timing. Have you looked at the belt? What do the plugs look like? You've deduced that you have fuel and air. Time to determine if the spark is strong and the compression is in the right spot.

I pulled the top timing belt cover off yesterday. The belt looks good, but I have not checked timing yet. I will do that...

I pulled the plugs over the weekend, they are new, but I did not double check brand or type. They looked clean. No signs of combustion issues. But, I haven't put many miles on it either...

[2.216VTurbo]

hmm, this is starting to sound like a MAP sensor issue but that *should* throw a CEL and store a code 13... Check the supply to it closely, maybe bypass the baro solenoid and go direct from manifold source to MAP?

[83scamp]

hmm, this is starting to sound like a MAP sensor issue but that *should* throw a CEL and store a code 13... Check the supply to it closely, maybe bypass the baro solenoid and go direct from manifold source to MAP?

I'll check vacuum lines. I do not have any stored codes. I checked yesterday, and all I got was 12 & 55...

[sdac guy]

About a year ago I sold my GLHT which had been sitting for a few years.

The new owner had essentially the same problem you describe. It turned out to be a still dirty gas tank. He had installed a new fuel pump and cleaned the tank.

But the car would fall flat on its face after driving a short distance. He would turn the car off and when he restarted it, it would run "normal" for a while. After checking everything, he pulled the fuel pump to check it. The sock was filthy. So he drained the gas and cleaned the tank again, still getting a lot of grime and stuff out of it.

He put it all back together and drove the car some more, but after a few miles the problem returned. He pulled the pump again and the sock was dirty again. So he pulled the tank off the car, washed it well with soap and water, scrubbing the bottom and as far in as he could reach. He rinsed the tank with his pressure washer and said the amount of stuff that came out of it was unbelievable.

He let the tank sit in the sun to heat it up and dry it out and put it back in the car. The problem was gone and hasn't returned.

He figured that the pump would get enough clean gas to go a few miles but would start sucking up the grime till it finally clogged. It would idle fine but would not make any power. If he turned the engine off for a bit, enough grime would fall off the sock to allow it to run again when restarted, but as soon as enough grime was sucked up, it would clog the sock again.

Barry