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Thread: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

  1. #21
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Wow.that is very interesting.I see what you mean.Can't imagine trying to get traction.I had a hard enough time back in the day trying to get that 2.2 hooked up.Of course i was a dumb kid then..Now I'm just a dumb adult .

  2. #22
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    This is what I mean.

    Typical 2.5 Dyno.

    That looks pretty normal and shows peak power at ~4400 rpm (could be minor things causing it to peak just slightly early. I had a car peak at 3700 rpm while blowing through a 2" exhaust..). That car would not be very sensitive to shift points but it would definitely run slower if you shifted BEFORE the power peak.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  3. #23
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    PT lifters did nothing for my 2.5, have good stock lifters in it now and it runs exactly the same. If the engine would rev higher, they may work better, but if you shift below 6k I don't see much advantage.

    I should mention that I do have a 2-piece and a 52mm TB and a 3" exhaust, but still running a stock .48 AR turbo, and a small 3" cat also. Did a bit of racing last night, it's still pulling at 5k, but not near as hard as it does below that. As 5DIGITS told, it's not so much that it doesn't make hp up there, it's just that the 2.5 has a much bigger torque spike when it spools, and that spike falls off quickly. The more boost you run the more pronounced it is.

    A larger AR turbine and getting rid of the cat would probably help also.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  4. #24
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    This is what I mean.

    Typical 2.5 Dyno.

    100% with Vigo.

    Not having the perceptible power change but instead having a constant power band is something your mind has to understand based on science.

    A big problem people have with their 2.2 to 2.5 swaps and vice versa swaps, is that these piles of junk get tuned based on feelings (or not tuned at all, run on the wrong electronics, etc) and then MYTHteries start from there. With decades of bad advice and bad builds, anyone who does succeed is seen as an oddball.

    If you shift because you don't feel torque increasing, have fun losing. Vigo has not completely given up the desire to give advice but I see it as pointless in these threads. What people use to say they love a 2.2 over a 2.5 technically puts them on the Honda bandwagon...something they will hate on by all of a sudden pretending to be a 2.5 fan. Or people could just understand a bit more about powerbands and how they apply real power to the ground and not feelings.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  5. #25
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Well good info so far.Thanks for the advice.I was actually able to score a t-2.5 from a Shadow.Cylinder head is in great shape.That's basically what i needed for my 2.2 .I was entertaining running the 2.5 as an option.So basically now i have the cylinder head that i needed and a good block ,rods and other goodies for my future build.thanks again Fellas.

  6. #26
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by flapjack View Post
    Well good info so far.Thanks for the advice.I was actually able to score a t-2.5 from a Shadow.Cylinder head is in great shape.That's basically what i needed for my 2.2 .I was entertaining running the 2.5 as an option.So basically now i have the cylinder head that i needed and a good block ,rods and other goodies for my future build.thanks again Fellas.
    Running the proper head with the proper tune is also something people for years have muffed up.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  7. #27
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Running the proper head with the proper tune is also something people for years have muffed up.
    Well please enlighten me.Any info is welcome.The more the better.

  8. #28
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by flapjack View Post
    Well please enlighten me.Any info is welcome.The more the better.
    This is a subject I don't study because I don't have to (3.0) but there have been a few threads lately regarding how important it is to get the right tune on the right head, and think about what limitations for pump gas boost your cylinder head will have. Force Fed Mopar had one of these threads just in the last year. People seem a bit lost/concerned or desperate to find the right head compared to years ago when people kept slapping random parts together with any old calibration that was handy.

    The ability to custom tune your 2.2/2.5 these days is a great improvement, especially when you can't find your ideal parts.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  9. #29
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Makes total sense.With all the tech I have been reading bottom line seems to be "get your tune right".which I can agree with.But actually getting the tune right without tearing things up is the issue. Ive read a good bit on tuning these things and I'm jot sure if I feel smarter or dumber..lol.guess i'll keep reading.

  10. #30
    boostaholic
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Kinda late to the party but I built a 2.5 for a GLHT a few years ago
    Slapped on a Holset HY 35 turbo and didn't look back
    First few passes with slicks netted me a 12.13@112
    Big turbo probably gives me enough lag to help with traction
    It's a really fun combo coming from a stock 86 turbo configuration
    I drag raced cars for years without slicks and I'll never do that again
    I get way too frustrated trying to launch without spinning or bogging

  11. #31
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by flapjack View Post
    Makes total sense.With all the tech I have been reading bottom line seems to be "get your tune right".which I can agree with.But actually getting the tune right without tearing things up is the issue. Ive read a good bit on tuning these things and I'm jot sure if I feel smarter or dumber..lol.guess i'll keep reading.
    If you need help, feel free to PM me. I've run what feels like a dozen different timing setups, along with fighting the knock sensor due to a noisy head. I can tell you that on a stock 2.5 swirl head on straight 93 oct pump gas, 18-20 psi is pretty much where you stop getting any real gains in hp on a stock Garret turbo, even with an upgraded intercooler. And the MP cal is very hard to beat, I have a few more degrees in boost but not much. Others have used meth and water injection to go up to 28psi and make more power. Another has a small FWD-P 50 trim and runs E85 and makes over 300whp.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  12. #32
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  13. #33
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    I will look into this. And i'm sure i will be contacting you.I probably wont even touch 18 psi but ya never know.my plan was to start low (obviously for tuning reasons and then get to about 15psi).But knowing me i'll end up at 18.lol.But anyhow it will be a little while before everything goes together but i hopefully will be done in time for the meet at Cecil.

  14. #34
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    15psi on a 2.5 with a little extra timing in a light car will be pretty quick.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  15. #35
    turbo addict slasky's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Here is my dyno graph from a few years ago. It is the 2.5 that is in my charger. The top end was 100% stock, intake, head, exhaust, cam, and throttle body. The top end dips are from the spark blowing out. I gapped the plugs down and it fixed it.

    Attachment 54254

    Having a 2.5 in a charger is quite a bit of fun. I have done a lot of work since then and I hope to get it back on the same dyno this year. I now have a ported head with bigger valves, custom cam, custom intake, TU cast header, and a 58mm throttle body. I also now have a taller final gear ratio in my 555. I can't wait to see what happens at the track. With the old setup and stock 555 I would spin the slicks all through 1st gear and hook up in second. I would also be at the very top of 4th gear going through the traps. With the new set up it pretty much blows the tires on the street if you get on it in first, second, or third gear. Hopefully I will see some great numbers at the track.
    SDAC member "It's not the ride, it's the rider."

  16. #36
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by slasky View Post
    Here is my dyno graph from a few years ago. It is the 2.5 that is in my charger. The top end was 100% stock, intake, head, exhaust, cam, and throttle body. The top end dips are from the spark blowing out. I gapped the plugs down and it fixed it.

    Attachment 54254

    Having a 2.5 in a charger is quite a bit of fun. I have done a lot of work since then and I hope to get it back on the same dyno this year. I now have a ported head with bigger valves, custom cam, custom intake, TU cast header, and a 58mm throttle body. I also now have a taller final gear ratio in my 555. I can't wait to see what happens at the track. With the old setup and stock 555 I would spin the slicks all through 1st gear and hook up in second. I would also be at the very top of 4th gear going through the traps. With the new set up it pretty much blows the tires on the street if you get on it in first, second, or third gear. Hopefully I will see some great numbers at the track.
    I can't see the attachment

    The threads posted above are what I was talking about. More condensed information about 2.2/2.5 engine combinations and tune problems.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  17. #37
    turbo addict slasky's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Attachment 54308

    Does this work?
    SDAC member "It's not the ride, it's the rider."

  18. #38
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Negative...


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
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  19. #39
    turbo addict slasky's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    Weird. I am not sure why I can't post attachments. Here is the link to my original thread with the graph. Let me know if that works.

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...highlight=dyno
    SDAC member "It's not the ride, it's the rider."

  20. #40
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Running a 2.5 instead of 2.2

    That works.

    My 2 cents. The 2.2 gets away with the crappy flowing head as it doesn't need as much flow. Adding a seemingly minor .3 cc's and it finds the cork quickly.

    I've always run ported heads and the 2.5 loves flow, even a stock TIII head on a 2.5 sucks, it sign's off way too early.

    This is a dyno from a few years ago, crappy tune-not even for this head, was for a G head, very mild ported TIII head, cat was partially plugged, tps was bad and I could hear knock just after 6000 rpm, but you can see how it doesn't drop off as fast.
    I'll post Larry's too, 2.5 with an HE351 and a Neon head, not sure if its ported.



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