running t2 with yellow restrictor on the left
running t2 with yellow restrictor on the left
Yellow is correct for the 'typical' application.Originally Posted by going4speed
Note: I find running a green orifice provides more calibration authority over transient boost.
If you plumb the WG directly to the intake, how much boost will the engine make?
5 psi. What size is a green?
I believe the yellow is .025" and the green is .035"
The green reduces pressure transfer delays, slows the boost rise BUT allows the calibration to have better authority.
This makes the transient cals more responsive and moves the rate of rise from the hardware to the software, with less risk of over-shoot.
I officially give up. This is an utter waste of time.5 psi is all I get no matter what I do. Three different solenoids, every conceivable layout t1, t2, restrictor no restictor...I'm done.
I agree.
Manual boost controller or aftermarket electronic boost controller works best.
With so many vehicles using the stock arrangement for boost control, that would be unfortunate.I officially give up. This is an utter waste of time.
Assuming the plumbing, solenoids and wiring have all been verified, any ongoing effort in that area is pointless and frustrating - I agree.
Is there still no way to test a production chip/controller in this car?
I don't have a production computer or production chip.
I just came in from redoing all the vacuum lines again. Rechecked all the wiring. Guess what? Yep no computer controlled boost. This is just amazing. This time I made it T1 source control and used the smallest restrictor I have, a red, to see if it would help. Bottom line the computer is not opening the solenoid. Not one bit. Why I dont know. Maybe I have two bad computers in a row? It clicks on start up. Clicks in Mpscan. Clicks when you unplug and plug it back in.
It seems you may be thinking about this all wrong.
Your WG is held shut by the spring in the WG actuator. Boost pressure fed through the WG solenoid is used to overpower that spring and open the WG lowering boost.
Solenoid operation is not required to make boost initially. Solenoid operation is done to LIMIT boost. So, if the problem was that your solenoid was not working at all, then your engine would make boost and not be able to control it.
It sounds like your WG is plumbed directly to a vacuum/boost source. So, one more thing to try, and it is very easy to do. Just to double check that your vacuum line plumbing to the WG solenoid is correct. The line from your vacuum/boost source goes on the center nipple. Then try the line to the WG on the bottom nipple, and if that doesn't work, try it on the top one.
Barry
86 Shelby Lancer Prototype
90 Daytona Shelby VNT
91 Spirit R/T
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That's great news and progress.
With all the effort you have placed on the plumbing and electrical validation, this had to be the case.
The production controls have far more to offer than most of the inexpensive auxiliary boost control units - in other words, figuring this out is very beneficial.
Keep up the effort and locate a test module to seal the deal.
Nice job!!!
This should not be done as it switches from the N.C. to the N.O. side of the solenoid, inverts the required DC and will alter the transient control.
I know the T1 computer boost control works. I've been using it for years. I had to use a bigger restrictor, but it does work.
He may have an issue with the power module board, the driver circuit and worth checking against an all stock arrangement.
From there it can be determined/isolated to the board and then to the application specific cals being used.
Bottom line... there's so much more than just the DC% table that can throw stable control out the window, if altered incorrectly.
Barry you described T2 boost control, Rob's cals are initially set up like a 88+ T1 where the WG is plumbed directly to the WG actuator and the solenoid opens to bleed boost pressure off and rise the boost level.
It probably does work on a stock setup such as yours. Running a Mitsu wide open really doesn't count as control IMO. I can tweak the boost goals on the very old stock based cals and they work great. But in my experience once you bolt on 3" exhaust, or other mods, it all goes out the window and boost becomes uncontrollable. I was never able to get boost control to work with the 3 bar cals. With 5 digits info above though I might give it another try.
It's hardly stock. It's a stock turbo, but it's running 20psi (on computer control); with a 3-bar MAP, and an open exhaust. Very open.
Boost only becomes uncontrollable using the stock calibration. We don't expect the stock calibration for fuel to work well when we go 3-bar +40, and a ported head do we? So, then we shouldn't expect the stock WG calibration to work when we add a larger exhaust or turbo.
One other thought I had to the OP...
When are you checking for the WG solenoid to energize? You say it never open except on key-on. That might be true. The WG control does nothing at all if the engine is running in vacuum. The WG control is essentially off until the boost is above MAPPT2_WastegateDutyCycleMapSwitchPoint2. Stock, that is set to about 1psi boost. So, if you are cruising around trying to watch for the WG solenoid to activate, it probably won't. You have to get into boost before the WG will start cycling.
After each change I drive the car till warm and then drive the heck out of it floored to 5000rpm. The wastegate solenoid does not switch and the boost just sits at 5 psi.
My understanding is that the solenoid would be normally open with the key off. So if the solenoid was say unplugged then there would be no boost backing up against the solenoid and then you would get uncontrolled boost flying straight off the gauge. So that said the solenoid is plumbled straight through or what I call normally open with the car off. With the car on the solenoid closes and that is why the car gets 5psi driving it. The boost is deadheading against the solenoid and backing up to the wga and causing the wg to open thus 5psi. To me this proves the car can energize the solenoid and hold it closed. For some reason it wont cycle once in boost to allow it to bleed off some of the source boost and allow the wastegate to close and thus drive the boost higher into the boost target. i have the boost target set at 16 psi with overboost set at 18. 3 bar map and +20's, 2.5" full exhaust (cat, resonator, muffler), garrett turbo, small can, all new lines for the fourth of fifth time. I am taking vacuum lines off the change list now.
Is there something I could change in the cal to make the solenoid not close on start up to see if its not just closing it due to some other thing I dont know about yet?
What is this power board? Is that the main board or the smaller board the white plug plugs into?
If it goes to 100%, you must be using T2 control. T2 starts at 100% and reduces the duty cycle to increase boost.
But, the WG sounds like its plumbed as T1, right?
That combination won't work.
His issue is the inability to make boost.
The point would be to realize if some measurable amount of boost can be made if the controller is changed.
To your point, the stock controller may hunt on an unrestricted exhaust but the question is whether anything close to the target can be accomplished - just as a test.
Exactly.
The following is a 'general' boost control overview and considerations during calibration.
The strategy..
The solenoid is inactive until the Map trip point (calibratable value) has been reached and operates in the following order thereafter.
1) The target boost duty cycle (based on throttle position) is extracted from the DCWOT table (calibratable table)
2) The extracted target boost duty cycle is offset by barometric pressure (calibratable default value used if unavailable) and is set to the solenoid output DC%.
3) If transient 'delta MAP' (rising boost) goes above the 'trigger' levels (calibratable values), the DC% output is adjusted further to avoid target boost over-shoot
4) Exceeding the previous transient 'delta MAP' triggers levels can cause one of two adjustments (calibratable tables) to impact the DC% beyond the DCWOT value
5) Once the transient MAP drops below the 'trigger' levels (calibratable values), the control switches to target boost adjustment
6) Target boost adjustment consists of 'time above target and by how much' and 'time below target and by how much' (all calibratable values)
7) While #6 is being utilized, a gross over-goal offset (calibratable value) can be used to quickly offset the DC% to regain target control
8) While #6 is in use and #7 is not, adaptive updates are possible providing the adaptive conditions (calibratable values) are satisfied
Common mistakes:
1) The DCWOT table is used to accelerate boost rise - results in poor overall control and longer learn times
2) The transient trigger levels for using transient control are desensitized to accelerate boost rise - results in boost over goal
3) The transient DC% adjustment tables are desensitized to accelerate boost rise - results in boost over goal
4) The target boost timers and delta MAP levels are altered to speed up adjustment - results in boost hunting
5) The adaptive delta MAP levels do not consider the values used in #4 and adaptive updates occur before boost has stabilized - results in corrupted learned adjustment
6) All related values have not been rescaled to the MAP sensor being used, including the barometric default - results in overall poor boost transient, target, and adaptive control
Hope this helps
Last edited by 5DIGITS; 04-12-2015 at 10:53 AM.
I have T2 wastegate control unchecked in the calibration.
I have made no changes to the calibration with the exception of scaling for +20 injectors and 3 bar map
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