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Thread: Computer controlled boost turbonator

  1. #21
    boostaholic
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Will measure the resistance tonight.

    As for the grounding my understanding is the blue wire is positive and is positive when the key is on and the smec drives the duty cycle with the green wire as ground.

    I have verified the green wire integrity from the solenoid to the smec. The blue wire tee's to many other items that are working just fine too.

    You may be onto something with the resistance. Perhaps the resistance is too high and the smec can't actuate the solenoid fast enough to generate a duty cycle that can affect the wastegate.

    The same could hold true for the stock solenoid on the car and I will measure its resistance as well to see.

    Do we know what the stock resistance is of these solenoids?

  2. #22
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    Will measure the resistance tonight.

    As for the grounding my understanding is the blue wire is positive and is positive when the key is on and the smec drives the duty cycle with the green wire as ground.

    I have verified the green wire integrity from the solenoid to the smec. The blue wire tee's to many other items that are working just fine too.

    You may be onto something with the resistance. Perhaps the resistance is too high and the smec can't actuate the solenoid fast enough to generate a duty cycle that can affect the wastegate.

    The same could hold true for the stock solenoid on the car and I will measure its resistance as well to see.

    Do we know what the stock resistance is of these solenoids?
    By memory, I believe the stock resistance is 30 ohms.
    As you mentioned, too high a resistance will delay response while a lower response will over-drive the module.
    Let us know what you find.

  3. #23
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Okay measured the stock wastegate solenoid and got 177 Ohms

    Then measured the purge solenoid and got 31.6 ohms.

    Measured the GM solenoid and got 27.7 ohms.

    Clearly something going on with the stock wastegate solenoid that was hooked up.

    In the MPScan tests on the stock wastegate solenoid it would actuate.

    Measured across the wires for the wastegate solenoid with it disconnected and get 38.6 ohms.

    I'm hoping that means the driver is still good.

  4. #24
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor jonnymopar's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    I ran across this thread (having battled with computer-controlled boost for years now) and did some experimenting myself. My car is coming out of storage this weekend. So far, all of my messing around with computer-controlled boost has yielded similar results to what the original poster said. I really hope to have it working this year. I know there were some recent changes made to the Turbonator cals relating to computer-controlled boost. I didn't get a chance to try them before the end of the season last year.

    I checked both the boost and purge solenoids as-removed, and also after cleaning them. I cleaned them just as 5DIGITS specified. To my knowledge, they're original 1989 parts with 180,000 miles on them.

    Here's what I got for measurements on the BOOST solenoid:

    Coil resistance: 46.5 ohms
    Normally-closed input blow-open pressure: 29psi
    Normally-closed input blow-open pressure (cleaned): 30psi

    And the PURGE solenoid:

    Coil resistance: 45.2 ohms
    Normally-closed input blow-open pressure: 26psi
    Normally-closed input blow-open pressure (cleaned): 28psi

    For the hell of it, I also did experiments with the normally-open inputs with the coil energized. In all cases, 50psi could not open it. Furthermore, it had no problem opening and closing at a sustained 50psi. I couldn't go much higher than that because of the tubing I was using (glad I had safety glasses on).

    I don't want to offend, but if I could ask a stupid question to the original poster: are you using the newest Turbonator?
    Jon J.

    1989 Daytona ES 2.4L DOHC
    2003 Neon SXT - gone but never forgotten

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!

  5. #25
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Glad I'm not the only one with this battle. Odd the resistance is that much higher on your solenoids. I dont know if there is a published max for the resistance but do know that 177 ohms sounds crazy high. This is really a pretty simple closed loop system so I dont know what the heck ....

  6. #26
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Would it be possible to build a separate board that could take the signal from the smec and then drive the solenoid? I wonder if the boards get weaker and cant sustain the duty cycle required. If that was the case then the signal could be used and activate the secondary board.

    http://www.magneticsensorsystems.com...ics/pwm950.asp

  7. #27
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor jonnymopar's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    All you'd need is an automotive relay. It would be way simpler, plus it would be weather-proof. I'd whip up a schematic, but I'm not sure which leg of the solenoid gets switched by the ECU, positive or negative.

    I need to get another set of FSMs and keep them at work with me.
    Jon J.

    1989 Daytona ES 2.4L DOHC
    2003 Neon SXT - gone but never forgotten

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!

  8. #28
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Negative is switched by the ecu. A relay would be enough? Intersting. I have a sealed relay on the way that would be ideal then.

  9. #29
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    I can't imagine a traditional mechanical relay will work fast enough. The WG solenoid cycles at 11msec if I recall correctly. In the LM for sure, maybe faster in the SMEC/SBEC.

    A solid state relay might work.

    I'm guessing output of the ECU isn't your problem. How is your setup plumbed again? I can't the pic you posted previously...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
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  10. #30
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor jonnymopar's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    11msec... I'm surprised that cheap little plastic solenoid can switch that fast! I agree with you Rob that it's something other than the driver. I've messed up my wiring before and haven't damaged any of the driver ICs (in a SMEC at least).

    I'll ask again: are you using the newest version of Turbonator? Rob, while you're here... what version of the code base had the fix for the boost target lookup?
    Jon J.

    1989 Daytona ES 2.4L DOHC
    2003 Neon SXT - gone but never forgotten

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!

  11. #31
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Rob,

    I sent you an email. Pictures on this site kick my butt like computer controlled boost.

    I must be doing something completely stupid with this car.

    11ms..yea a relay wont be able to keep up with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    I can't imagine a traditional mechanical relay will work fast enough. The WG solenoid cycles at 11msec if I recall correctly. In the LM for sure, maybe faster in the SMEC/SBEC.

    A solid state relay might work.

    I'm guessing output of the ECU isn't your problem. How is your setup plumbed again? I can't the pic you posted previously...
    - - - Updated - - -

    I download what I think is the latest at V19.6 but when I download it it stills says V19.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnymopar View Post
    11msec... I'm surprised that cheap little plastic solenoid can switch that fast! I agree with you Rob that it's something other than the driver. I've messed up my wiring before and haven't damaged any of the driver ICs (in a SMEC at least).

    I'll ask again: are you using the newest version of Turbonator? Rob, while you're here... what version of the code base had the fix for the boost target lookup?

  12. #32
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnymopar View Post
    11msec... I'm surprised that cheap little plastic solenoid can switch that fast! I agree with you Rob that it's something other than the driver. I've messed up my wiring before and haven't damaged any of the driver ICs (in a SMEC at least).

    I'll ask again: are you using the newest version of Turbonator? Rob, while you're here... what version of the code base had the fix for the boost target lookup?
    19.6...

    But, it was just a boost target problem. The WGDC calculation hasn't been modified...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    Rob,

    I sent you an email. Pictures on this site kick my butt like computer controlled boost.

    I must be doing something completely stupid with this car.

    11ms..yea a relay wont be able to keep up with that.



    - - - Updated - - -

    I download what I think is the latest at V19.6 but when I download it it stills says V19.
    Says V19 where? In MP Tune? That's normal. You'd have to look at the .asm file and the revision list to see if it's actually 19.6. But, if you got it from the 19.6 .zip file, it's correct.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  13. #33
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Ok just checking as the V19 confused me, easily done. It was downloaded from the 19.6 zip.

  14. #34
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Here's an excellent article on computer controlled boost. It's for Subaru boost control, but the basics are the same as for our systems. When reading, consider the main type of boost control they are explaining is like the 'T1' system for our cars - 'bleed' type. Our T2 boost control is 'interrupt' type as they describe it.

    http://www.cobbtuning.com/Technical-...es-s/70674.htm
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  15. #35
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor jonnymopar's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Great find! MUCH clearer than looking at our under-hood vacuum diagrams. Thanks Rob.
    Jon J.

    1989 Daytona ES 2.4L DOHC
    2003 Neon SXT - gone but never forgotten

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!

  16. #36
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Bypassed the factory harness and wired direct to the smec. Exactly the same results. Next I guess I start playing with duty cycle...getting tired of this.

  17. #37
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    In mptune and the turbonator code how is the wastegate duty cycle managed during part throttle?

    Being that there is only full throttle adjustment available I wonder if that may be an opportunity?

  18. #38
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    Okay measured the stock wastegate solenoid and got 177 Ohms

    Then measured the purge solenoid and got 31.6 ohms.

    Measured the GM solenoid and got 27.7 ohms.

    Clearly something going on with the stock wastegate solenoid that was hooked up.

    In the MPScan tests on the stock wastegate solenoid it would actuate.

    Measured across the wires for the wastegate solenoid with it disconnected and get 38.6 ohms.

    I'm hoping that means the driver is still good.
    I agree - the 177ohm measurement is too high and will affect the solenoid response time (it will be slower).
    The 11ms Rob mentioned is the loop time of the engine controller and therefore becomes the update rate for solenoid software routine but if I recall correctly there are alternate (slower) software timers used for DC output control.

    When isolated, there is very little to the boost control circuit/system and it's related components.
    Since the wiring and vacuum plumbing is assumed to be correct, the remaining element seems to be the software version and the turbo/wastegate components.

    What turbo is on this vehicle?
    Has the turbo been ported/modified?
    Can a stock ECM be tested in the vehicle?
    Mechanically, solenoids in good condition require a fair amount of pressure to blow past the pintle seal while aged/rusty/broken spring units will leak.
    Therefore and regardless of the measured resistance, is the solenoid mechanically functional?
    Many test the WG actuator by applying pressure and look for corresponding arm movement - but will it hold pressure/does it leak?

  19. #39
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Car has a small can garrett t2 turbo. Will hold set boost all day with a grainger. Tested with a vacuum pump and it holds vacuum no problem.

    I dont know anything about the turbo as that is what came on the vehicle but I believe it to be a stock rebuild.

    I never did try a stock smec but I put on MP 4344 flash last night or whatever that number combination is (its on the bootcamp side of this mac) and will try that today.
    Was idling like crap with that flash even changed for the 3 bar and the +20's.

    If I change it out for a large can, which looks almost impossible to get to, would the programming have to change?

    I seem to recall that a can change requires a program change.
    Last edited by going4speed; 04-05-2015 at 11:23 AM.

  20. #40
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    In mptune and the turbonator code how is the wastegate duty cycle managed during part throttle?

    Being that there is only full throttle adjustment available I wonder if that may be an opportunity?
    The duty cycle table is used for part throttle and WOT.
    It defines the initial DC before any other compensation is required.
    The simplest way to define the boost control is that the lowest calibrated value from all of the tables will be used.
    This includes boost decrements due to knock, engine temp, intake temp, part throttle limiting, transient boost rate of rise, etc....


    * MAX BOOST CALCULATION *
    * MAXBOOST = PBARO + (LOWEST VALUE OF RPM BASED, BOOST TIMERS, *
    * COOLANT TEMP AND INTAKE CHARGE - KNOCK DECREMENTS *
    * LIMITED BY: PART THROTTLE BOOST LEVEL IF NOT AT WOT AND *
    * AUTO TRANSMISSION BOOST LIMITS *


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 5DIGITS View Post
    I agree - the 177ohm measurement is too high and will affect the solenoid response time (it will be slower).
    The 11ms Rob mentioned is the loop time of the engine controller and therefore becomes the update rate for solenoid software routine but if I recall correctly there are alternate (slower) software timers used for DC output control.

    When isolated, there is very little to the boost control circuit/system and it's related components.
    Since the wiring and vacuum plumbing is assumed to be correct, the remaining element seems to be the software version and the turbo/wastegate components.

    What turbo is on this vehicle?
    Has the turbo been ported/modified?
    Can a stock ECM be tested in the vehicle?
    Mechanically, solenoids in good condition require a fair amount of pressure to blow past the pintle seal while aged/rusty/broken spring units will leak.
    Therefore and regardless of the measured resistance, is the solenoid mechanically functional?
    Many test the WG actuator by applying pressure and look for corresponding arm movement - but will it hold pressure/does it leak?
    One additional item typically overlooked is that the boost control on these cars is barometrically compensated.
    Does the baro sensor work and what are the defaults set to when it doesn't?
    This can be a problem when changing from one MAP to another.
    Last edited by 5DIGITS; 04-05-2015 at 11:43 AM.

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