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Thread: Computer controlled boost turbonator

  1. #121
    Garrett booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    I've talked to a few people who have had computer controlled boost working very well in the past. I believe some have used a larger solenoid at higher boost.
    Cordes, that was my eventual plan. I have the common 3 port port mac valve somewhere to try eventually. I believe that should only really be necessary beyond 20-25psi, where those pressures could just overcome the factory solenoid. I think a healthy factory one should function fine until that point.

    Forgive me, I would have liked to make one clean response post but I don't know how to do the multi quotes easily.

  2. #122
    Garrett booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    i bet using a mac solenoid that tons of other people use nowadays on turbo cars would work well as long as the coil resistance is the same or more as the stock solenoid. those transistors that are controlling the solenoid cant handle tons of current.
    I have to figure out where I put my MAC valve so I can measure it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    <br>
    the stock system had adaptive control so without disabling this, its hard to get the Boost level/vs duty cycle correct.
    with T2 style boost control you can disable the adaptives by setting NoWastegateDutyCycleCorrectionAboveThisRpm to something super low, like idle.

    with T1 style boost control you can disable the adaptives by setting NoWastegateDutyCycleCorrectionBelowThisRpm to something super high, like above redline.

    Then you set FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycle C8is100Percent FromMap to a flat line at a specific duty cycle and FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycleAdjustmentFromBoostT arget to zero you can go out and hammer it and see what boost you get. write down that duty cycle and boost value. change the duty cycle and try again and write down that boost value and what duty cycle you got.
    eventually you will have a list of duty cycle values and boost levels that result from said duty cycle.
    you can put those into FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycle C8is100Percent FromMap and the boost control should work much better.

    Note.... FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycleAdjustmentFromBoostT arget table isn't set correctly in the T2 style boost control. it should be the inverse.... the further away from the boost target, it should decrease duty cycle to get the turbo spooled up.

    Brian
    Brian, thanks for the break down! That is how I've been thinking of the WGDC. There are going to be differences for not just individual turbo/wastegate/housing/housing porting, but the routing of the control solenoid too. I just don't mean T1 or T2, but: solenoid, line size, line length, restrictor size, etc. But "x" DC% should really result in "x" boost for the given setup (with the exception of creep from a restrictive housing). Regarding the adaptives- I haven't disabled mine yet. The info I saw on Rob Lloyd's Wiki was to 0xff (max, I believe) the 'StopAdaptiveWGWhenMapIsThisCloseToBoostTarget'. In T-SBEC code that value is used in the "T1BC_ControlBoostCreep", but it seems "NoWastegateDutyCycleCorrectionBelowThisRpmVNT " is considered first, so I would think either should work.

    have zeroed out "FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycleAdjustmentFromB oost Target" currently while trying to determine my WGDC values. Do you know how exactly changes to this table will affect things later? If its positive, does it increase the WGDC that percent above the "DCWOT" value?

    At the moment I am using T1 control, setup as the traditional to 88-91 routing style. I am going to try it as 92 style with long lines (WG solenoid is on passenger side) but also plan to try short lines with the solenoid close to the source and actuator.

    Some concerns I have so far are: are the baro values in the cal properly scaled and do my MAP transfer values need to be corrected. I am logging almost anything WG related. My 3 Bar map value (live and logged) appears to be matching up with my mechanical gauge. Through a pull my "Previous Boost" value doesn't seem accurate and neither does "BoostDelta". "Previous Boost" logs about 5psi higher than the MAP value and the "Boost Error Timer" starts counting as if it is over goal. I'm not sure if I could insert a portion of the .csv here to show this.
    Last edited by Dan H; 06-06-2020 at 10:33 AM.

  3. #123
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Since I'm learning this Cal stuff, In MP Tune what does the T2 Boost Control (under the customcaloption tab) do? And do I check it or uncheck it?
    Thanks,
    Jason



  4. #124
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
    I have to figure out where I put my MAC valve so I can measure it.



    Brian, thanks for the break down! That is how I've been thinking of the WGDC. There are going to be differences for not just individual turbo/wastegate/housing/housing porting, but the routing of the control solenoid too. I just don't mean T1 or T2, but: solenoid, line size, line length, restrictor size, etc. But "x" DC% should really result in "x" boost for the given setup (with the exception of creep from a restrictive housing). Regarding the adaptives- I haven't disabled mine yet. The info I saw on Rob Lloyd's Wiki was to 0xff (max, I believe) the 'StopAdaptiveWGWhenMapIsThisCloseToBoostTarget'. In T-SBEC code that value is used in the "T1BC_ControlBoostCreep", but it seems "NoWastegateDutyCycleCorrectionBelowThisRpmVNT " is considered first, so I would think either should work.

    have zeroed out "FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycleAdjustmentFromB oost Target" currently while trying to determine my WGDC values. Do you know how exactly changes to this table will affect things later? If its positive, does it increase the WGDC that percent above the "DCWOT" value?

    At the moment I am using T1 control, setup as the traditional to 88-91 routing style. I am going to try it as 92 style with long lines (WG solenoid is on passenger side) but also plan to try short lines with the solenoid close to the source and actuator.

    Some concerns I have so far are: are the baro values in the cal properly scaled and do my MAP transfer values need to be corrected. I am logging almost anything WG related. My 3 Bar map value (live and logged) appears to be matching up with my mechanical gauge. Through a pull my "Previous Boost" value doesn't seem accurate and neither does "BoostDelta". "Previous Boost" logs about 5psi higher than the MAP value and the "Boost Error Timer" starts counting as if it is over goal. I'm not sure if I could insert a portion of the .csv here to show this.
    Hey Dan, sorry I forgot to respond till now.

    yeah every bit of the turbo setup is going to affect wastegate duty cycle vs boost. and to map DCWOT quickly, id disable the adaptives. im sure with mpscan, we could datalog the adaptives to figure out how close DCWOT is but id probably be faster just to disable them and figure out what the curve is going to be.

    "FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycleAdjustmentFromB oost Target" is going to try to close the wastegate (increase duty cycle) until the boost is close to the target so it doesnt overshoot. it appears that the table adds 100% duty cycle if the difference in boost is 20psi from the target and fades to 0% duty added when you are 7.6psi away from the target. you can adjust this more aggressively (say 100% duty added when you are 15psi from target tapering to 0% at 5psi from target) but you may overshoot the boost target. thats my impression on how that table works if its as advertised/labeled.

    yeah with my aftermarket controller, i have the solenoid right by the turbo. i havent been back to ECU controlled boost since i swapped the LM harness to SMEC modules. i think im going to make a quick adapter plug so i can swap the solenoid from the aftermarket boost controller to the SMEC logic board thats in my kickpanel and use the same solenoid for each system. come to think of it, I could use my oscope and log the duty cycle coming out of the aftermarket controller and note what duty cycle creates what boost, and since the solenoid would be the same, just preprogram the DCWOT table and then test it out.

    hmm im not sure about the baro/map scaling. someone better at the code (morris/miles) would need to double check that stuff and make sure the memory locations that are being logged are what they say they are. and then test it with miles stimulator possibly.

    you could just host a csv on something like google drive or dropbox and link to it here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jason89 View Post
    Since I'm learning this Cal stuff, In MP Tune what does the T2 Boost Control (under the customcaloption tab) do? And do I check it or uncheck it?
    Thanks,
    Jason


    T2 boost control being checked, makes the ecu behave like a T2 ECU as far as the boost control is concerned. you would hook the wastegate hoses up like the vacuum diagram on a factory T2 car. see www.thedodgegarage.com for some of those underhood decals.

    i wouldnt use t2 boost control.

    i would hook it up like a T1 boost control car. like an 89 2.5 T1. and then check the T1 boost control checkbox.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  5. #125
    Garrett booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    I was due for a bit of an update: First, I don't think I have an accurate Baro value. I'm not that far from sea level MPScan will show around 20 inHG for the Baro reading. I would expect that it should read around 29inHG. I've been unable to find information on adjusting the MAP scale. The "make a precise MAP transfer function" section of the BoostButton wiki is one of the incomplete sections. I still proceeded with gathering WGDC values. From my understanding, the Baro value will affect the boost targets, but it shouldn't affect me forcing a given WGDC to get the resulting boost data.

    'StopAdaptiveWGWhenMapIsThisCloseToBoostTarget' did the trick to basically disable the wastegate adaptives for me. There are a few controls that will still affect the WGDC value but they don't particularly interfere with collecting the WGDC values that will result in a given boost result. I also set the "FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycleAdjustment FromRpm" flat, as close to zero, to see exactly how the boost values at a given WGDC will change through the RPM range.

    I routed my lines as the 92+ TI style and it worked well. Spool time is improved over the bleed style routing. [For the 89+ 3-port WG Solenoid this would mean: Pressure source to top barb, center barb to WG actuator, bottom barb vents. So if the solenoid fails, you will still have full signal to the WG actuator. Increase WGDC will increase boost.]

    WGDC values I set on the WGDCWOT table didn't result in the same logged value. I'm not sure why the table range value for the WGDCWOT in MPTune for the cal I was using were listed as 0-128%. Once I changed the range to 0-100%, the table values matched the logged value. My process was to set the WGDCWOT table flat to a value, test drive/log results, then repeat increasing in 5% increments. I set the boost goals higher than what I had already found that a given DC would provide.

    Yesterday was my first test where I worked those WGDC values into a curve and turned the WG adaptives back on. Two other general changes I made that seem to cause their own issues: 1) I enabled switchable boost and set the AllowedBoostLo at 10psi 2) I left the other AllowedBoost settings to basically 17.3psi, expect my
    AllowedBoostPartThrottle FromThrottle was set 10psi PT and 15psi FT.

    1)Switchable boost- Normally a log will show the boost target as my PT goal until I pass the TPS value that will allow the FT goal. This first test with my AllowedBoostLo set at 10psi my boost target showed 0 and changed to 0.3 at WOT. Neither resulted in any WGDC. Second test I changed the AllowedBoostLo to 14.5psi. The boost target now showed 10psi PT and 0.3psi at full throttle. Even when maintaining PT and passing my MAP Switch Point, no WGDC was added to achieve the 10psi goal.


    2) AllowedBoostPartThrottle FromThrottle- It was my understanding that that the lowest value of all the boost target lookup tables would be uses. I expected that even though other AllowedBoost value were higher, my AllowedBoostPartThrottle FromThrottle setting of 10psi PT and 15psi FT would be actualized. During this test, when switched to high boost, the PT boost target showed 10psi and the FT boost target showed 17.3psi. I would expect the target should have been 15psi. It also gave the WGDC value that would reflect the 17.3psi target.

    Last night, I was back to more forum searching. In the T-SBEC thread Rob Lloyd mentioned that there was some potential issue with the boost switch and other things. It's probably just another one of those things that was never really resolved before he moved on. It looked like he was trying to work on T-SBEC at the time and didn't have any or many people that could test it.
    Last edited by Dan H; 06-16-2020 at 01:21 PM.

  6. #126
    Garrett booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    p

    "FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycleAdjustmentFromB oost Target" is going to try to close the wastegate (increase duty cycle) until the boost is close to the target so it doesnt overshoot. it appears that the table adds 100% duty cycle if the difference in boost is 20psi from the target and fades to 0% duty added when you are 7.6psi away from the target. you can adjust this more aggressively (say 100% duty added when you are 15psi from target tapering to 0% at 5psi from target) but you may overshoot the boost target. thats my impression on how that table works if its as advertised/labeled.
    I need to look because that must be a SMEC table. I might have mentioned the wrong "Adjustement" table. In the SBEC I have "FullThrottleWastegateDutyCycleAdjustment FromRpm". I have it set close to zero now. It looks as though it can be used to increase DC at lower RPM to aid in spool time, then decrease in higher RPM to combat creep. I'm just hoping that using T1 control a positive DC% value will mean that increase over the DCWOT curve.

    EDIT- yup, it looks like I cut/past the AdjustmentFromBoost name when I meant AdjustmentFromRpm. AdjustmentFromBoost appears to be a SMEC table.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    yeah with my aftermarket controller, i have the solenoid right by the turbo. i havent been back to ECU controlled boost since i swapped the LM harness to SMEC modules. i think im going to make a quick adapter plug so i can swap the solenoid from the aftermarket boost controller to the SMEC logic board thats in my kickpanel and use the same solenoid for each system. come to think of it, I could use my oscope and log the duty cycle coming out of the aftermarket controller and note what duty cycle creates what boost, and since the solenoid would be the same, just preprogram the DCWOT table and then test it out.
    Sounds like the oscope could save you some time there. Which aftermarket controller do you have?
    Last edited by Dan H; 06-16-2020 at 01:31 PM.

  7. #127
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
    Sounds like the oscope could save you some time there. Which aftermarket controller do you have?
    Same HDi one that Wayne has.

    nice job on working that all that boost control tuning out.

    i gotta figure out why my car is smoking like a chimney. its making me crazy. lol. then ill play with the smec boost control tuning stuff.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  8. #128
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan H View Post


    1)Switchable boost- Normally a log will show the boost target as my PT goal until I pass the TPS value that will allow the FT goal. This first test with my AllowedBoostLo set at 10psi my boost target showed 0 and changed to 0.3 at WOT. Neither resulted in any WGDC. Second test I changed the AllowedBoostLo to 14.5psi. The boost target now showed 10psi PT and 0.3psi at full throttle. Even when maintaining PT and passing my MAP Switch Point, no WGDC was added to achieve the 10psi
    I tried setting a few higher values for AllowedBoostLo. The logged boost targets remained the same: 10psi PT/0.3psi FT. I would think this would mean that there is likely an issue with the code for it. I spent more time looking at it and comparing with other versions.

    I suppose it works in a way. When the switch is in "Low" I get full signal to the Wastegate Actuator and the least boost possible. That would work as a "valet" switch, just not what I was hoping for.

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