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Thread: Computer controlled boost turbonator

  1. #1
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    Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Caveat: I believe this is a problem with my car and nothing to do with boostbutton or the cals/computer.

    Seems I've always had issues with computer controlled boost so computer controlled boost is my life mission at this point.

    This is a stock turbo II 1988 Lancer with a 2.5" exhaust, boost button flashable smec, all new vacuum lines. Boost is completely controllable with a grainger when installed.

    Ever since I've had this car it has had no computer controlled boost. Using MPScan you can turn the diagnostics on and cycle the boost control solenoid. I figured it was a solenoid issue even though it will work fine. I installed a GM boost control solenoid using the same wiring and cycled in through mpscan and it cycles fine with what seems like click click pause click.

    Set it up T1 style and T2 style and still no boost control.

    The way I figure at this point I need to start playing with MPTune to get the duty cycle to try control the boost.

    I do see in the below link one pin for the wastegate solenoid.

    http://www.minimopar.net/ecu/smec-1988-t2.html

    So now a list of questions:

    Is the solenoid ground wired to specific pins in the smec?
    Could I test the wires to the smec connector for resistance?
    Is one of the solenoid wires grounded?
    What can I change in the Calibration to change the way the computer actuates the boost solenoid?
    Last edited by going4speed; 03-28-2015 at 07:18 PM.

  2. #2
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    WOT Duty Cycle is what you adjust for full throttle boost control.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  3. #3
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    part and full throttle max boost is five psi. looking in the t2 wastegate control 5 psi seems to be the setpoint for lots of settings. Like the full throttle wastegate setting is 5 psi then a near vertical slope down.

    Also allowed boost from temp is 5 psi. Makes me wonder if its thinking in C instead of F.

  4. #4
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    part and full throttle max boost is five psi. looking in the t2 wastegate control 5 psi seems to be the setpoint for lots of settings. Like the full throttle wastegate setting is 5 psi then a near vertical slope down.

    Also allowed boost from temp is 5 psi. Makes me wonder if its thinking in C instead of F.
    All tables are in F and the DC WOT table is used during P/T and WOT as the baseline table.
    Insure that if you plug in a diagnostic tool and run the WG solenoid test, you can audibly confirm if the solenoid is actuating.

    The DC table is only used to set the solenoid DC for a given WG CAN on a given turbo and is not used to adjust your desired boost goal.
    Using the DC WOT to adjust for a boost target, rather than using it to align the electronics to the hardware, will generate a change in boost level BUT the controller will attempt to learn out of table mis-use.. over time.
    Be aware that the T-I and T-II in 88 and later model years require different vacuum plumbing, specific to the WG.
    Also, the direction that boost is pushed through the solenoid (where the intake hose is plumbed relative to the WG hose) does matter.
    Reverse them and the solenoid pintle will need to overcome the boost pressure, can delay actuation or inhibit the solenoid from opening at all.
    This is especially true if the MAP offset value is raised too high and increased pressure is realized behind the pintle.

  5. #5
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    On my Shelby Z, I remember I set all my PT boost targets to 10psi and my WOT target to 18, then adjusted the DC until my actual boost matched those targets. Not sure if that's how it's supposed to work, but it worked good.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  6. #6
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    On my Shelby Z, I remember I set all my PT boost targets to 10psi and my WOT target to 18, then adjusted the DC until my actual boost matched those targets. Not sure if that's how it's supposed to work, but it worked good.
    That's the correct approach.
    Once that has been completed, the module should be reset to clear the boost adaptive offsets to insure the initialization tables are still correct.
    To adjust the slope of the DC table, set the WOT boost value to the P/T value and readjust if needed.
    This will help align the entire curve and eliminate boost target hunting during throttle transitions.
    This is also good practice on cars with a boost switch to avoid learning repeatedly up and down when switching between boost levels.
    Therefore when the switch is toggled, the target will be hit immediately.

  7. #7
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Oh man great knowledge drop in this thread! Lets keep it rolling!

  8. #8
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Just to add, the restrictor in the line for the T1 boost control is also highly important. If it's not there, or is too large you will not reach your boost target. If it's too small, you get spikes.

    Ken, the T1 WG control has the solenoid plumbed normally closed - that is, the WG will get full manifold pressure applied to it. But, so will the solenoid. You bring up a good point about the pintle; do you happen to know how much pressure the stock solenoids can hold before boost will start to open them? I currently run the stock solenoid @20psi. But, I've always been curious what the boost limit would be for the stock solenoids.

    I've been working on adding the '92 boost control to the earlier code. It's basically the best of both worlds. Like the T2, the WG can is actuated directly by the manifold pressure applied to it (rather than via a bleed); but it is plumbed in a fail-safe manner like the T1 control. Personally, I think the '92 boost control is a little too adaptive. For a user-tunable cal, I'd like to simplify it.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  9. #9
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Should I uncheck the t2 wastegate control checkbox and add the restrictor as a test?

    What else needs to be done to the cal besides unchecking T2?

  10. #10
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    Just to add, the restrictor in the line for the T1 boost control is also highly important. If it's not there, or is too large you will not reach your boost target. If it's too small, you get spikes.

    Ken, the T1 WG control has the solenoid plumbed normally closed - that is, the WG will get full manifold pressure applied to it. But, so will the solenoid. You bring up a good point about the pintle; do you happen to know how much pressure the stock solenoids can hold before boost will start to open them? I currently run the stock solenoid @20psi. But, I've always been curious what the boost limit would be for the stock solenoids.

    I've been working on adding the '92 boost control to the earlier code. It's basically the best of both worlds. Like the T2, the WG can is actuated directly by the manifold pressure applied to it (rather than via a bleed); but it is plumbed in a fail-safe manner like the T1 control. Personally, I think the '92 boost control is a little too adaptive. For a user-tunable cal, I'd like to simplify it.
    The T1 system changed between 1987 and 1988.
    The latter 1988 system is referred to the 'PAR' system and is as you describe - if the solenoid fails, the WG will see full manifold pressure and minimum boost is realized.
    This was done for obvious reasons and helped lower warranty related costs for turbo and head gasket failures due to solenoid malfunction.
    Although this approach was a durability fix, it comes with a lazier boost rise process unless the strategy is changed to actuate the valve and block pressure from the WG during the boost rise process.

    As far as the break-open pressure of the pintle, I do not know that value.
    For those who have taken the older style solenoid apart, the spring is rather weak.
    More importantly is the material and its ability to rust and weaken the spring over time, as it's exposed to the elements via the vent.
    This will further the pressures ability to break open the pintle seal and skew the over all WG duty cycle... over time.
    Over the years, I've made it normal practice to remove them, spray them through every port (actuated/de-activated) and finish with a shot of WD40 or an equivalent very light penetrating spray.
    Do not use a straight/heavy oil as it will attract debris and slow pintle movement within its travel.
    This helps them live longer by removing foreign matter, keeping the pintle rubber tip pliable and promote free travel.

  11. #11
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    If I set the car up t2 I have no boost control. If I set it up T1 I get 5 psi. Something is going on to where the computer is not actuating the solenoid to control the boost. If I had hair I'd pull it out.

  12. #12
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    If I set the car up t2 I have no boost control. If I set it up T1 I get 5 psi. Something is going on to where the computer is not actuating the solenoid to control the boost. If I had hair I'd pull it out.
    This can be frustrating - I agree.
    Do you know definitively which chip software base your working with?
    Do you have access to a scan tool that can ID the PN?
    If you have access to a scan tool, perform a solenoid actuator test to verify that the solenoid is functional and 'clicking'.

  13. #13
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    I'm running a boost button stage 3 from the v19.6.asm on a flashable smec. It did this with a burned chip on a socketed smec with a fwdperformace cal and a boostbutton stage II and stage III. That is what leads me to believe its a car issue.

  14. #14
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    I'm running a boost button stage 3 from the v19.6.asm on a flashable smec. It did this with a burned chip on a socketed smec with a fwdperformace cal and a boostbutton stage II and stage III. That is what leads me to believe its a car issue.
    Understood.
    Do you have access to a scan tool?
    The supply voltage to the solenoid needs to be confirmed along with the module driver and the related circuit.
    If a scan tool is not available, test the feed voltage with a volt meter and ground the opposing side of the solenoid to confirm functionality.
    This all assumes that the vacuum plumbing is correct for the application and the WG actuator is operational.

  15. #15
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    I used mpscan to test the solenoid. It clicks during the test. I checked the wiring from the harness end to the 39 pin location and its got continuity.

    How can you check the voltage at the solenoid? I guess that's something only a scan tool can do.

  16. #16
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    How are the wastegate solenoid and actuator plumbed? It is definitely different between T1 and T2...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

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  17. #17
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Keep in mind this is obviously not a dodge solenoid.

    On the right the vacuum line goes to the vacuum block.

    That hose has a yellow restrictor in it.

    The left side goes from the solenoid to wastegate.

    The white connector is just a reducer.

    Currently this solenoid is set up as straight through hence the 5 psi of boost.

    This is the setup with T2 checked in the options.

    Tried it with T2 not checked and get 5 psi.

    Tried the solenoid hooked up with the hose on the other barb so it was always closed.

    That netted uncontrollable boost and tried that with T2 check and unchecked.

    Last edited by going4speed; 03-30-2015 at 10:49 PM.

  18. #18
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Stupid question.
    The boost solenoid circuit does supply 12v right?
    Is there a way in mpscan to have it actuate and stay on say 100% duty cycle to test the voltage it's receiving?

  19. #19
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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    Stupid question.
    The boost solenoid circuit does supply 12v right?
    Is there a way in mpscan to have it actuate and stay on say 100% duty cycle to test the voltage it's receiving?
    maybe. i suppose i could see if i could cycle it automatically, e.g. have it on for a couple seconds then off for a couple seconds. i really need to put some time into documenting how the tests off a scan tool actually work and reproduce that in mpscan. once tax season is over maybe then...........
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

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    Re: Computer controlled boost turbonator

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    Stupid question.
    The boost solenoid circuit does supply 12v right?
    Is there a way in mpscan to have it actuate and stay on say 100% duty cycle to test the voltage it's receiving?
    Physically grounding the opposing side while the supply voltage will accomplish the task while monitoring the supply voltage with a volt meter.
    Do you know the resistance/impedance of the solenoid your using?

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