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Thread: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

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    Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Looking for input on what turbo to use on my SL build. Looking to hear what turbos,are being used with auto cars that are street driven regularly and your results if taken to the drag strip. I know this is a small minority in our 5 speed preferred world (I have the GLH) for that.

    Now on my pervious SL, I was almost in the 13's with the stock turbo, intercooler and trans on street tires. I would like to be in the mid to low 13's. on street tires.

    I have tried a t3t4 50 trim with stage 1 wheel, with an auto years ago. I could not get it to work well.

    thanks in advance,
    greg

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    2.5 or 2.2?

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by unluckyty View Post
    Looking for input on what turbo to use on my SL build. Looking to hear what turbos,are being used with auto cars that are street driven regularly and your results if taken to the drag strip. I know this is a small minority in our 5 speed preferred world (I have the GLH) for that.

    Now on my pervious SL, I was almost in the 13's with the stock turbo, intercooler and trans on street tires. I would like to be in the mid to low 13's. on street tires.

    I have tried a t3t4 50 trim with stage 1 wheel, with an auto years ago. I could not get it to work well.

    thanks in advance,
    greg
    What does "i could not get it to work well" mean? Hard to suggest anything with such a vague post. Sounds like you want a stock turbo that makes more power. Do you even know what A/R exhaust housing you had on that turbo?
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    2.5 or 2.2?
    Stock 2.2

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    What does "i could not get it to work well" mean? Hard to suggest anything with such a vague post. Sounds like you want a stock turbo that makes more power. Do you even know what A/R exhaust housing you had on that turbo?
    The turbo was a fwdp hybrid t3t4 50 trim .63 housing with a stage one wheel. Do not know more than that, not that knowledgeable on turbo per say.
    with an auto, stock turbo coverter. I could not brake boost, would take several seconds to build any boost. Was slow to get of the line. Car ran low 14's. The same car with a a555 would run high 12's.

    A stock performing turbo that would give me the et and trap 105 or better would be ideal.
    Thanks greg
    Last edited by unluckyty; 03-18-2015 at 11:17 PM. Reason: Added A/R size .63

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    A S60 type upgrade with a .48 turbine housing would be a good combo for a mild build in an automatic car and should get you to your power goals. The rest is up to traction.

    With turbos, there is always a trade off in max flow and efficiency vs. response. Less so with more modern turbos, but it is still a fact of life. If quick response is important to you stay on the small side, especially if you want to stay with a stock converter.
    Mike Marra
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    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Using a Stage 1 turbine side with a 50 trim compressor wheel is very restrictive. You need at least a Stage 2 wheel especially with an automatic. Do you still have the T3/T4 turbo? If so, we could upgrade your exhaust wheel to balance the turbo a little better. Did they stuff the 50 trim compressor wheel into a factory T3 cover or was it a true T3/T4 with the native T04E cover?

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    If you didn't like the spool of the 50 trim t4 compressor on a stg1/.48 turbine then your only real option on the turbo itself is to go smaller on the compressor. Luckily for you your goals are well within reach of something like a Super60 which is still a t3-family compressor wheel with the same 60mm exducer as the stock t3 and just a larger inducer than the stock turbo. The change in lag from stock, assuming you keep the .48 turbine housing, should be negligible.

    You should also consider the effect of the exhaust after the turbo on how the turbo spools. What was the exhaust setup with the 50 trim? Still stock 2.25 SV or something like that?

    In general i think the 2.2 is limiting with an auto trans. If you still have the 50 trim turbo you might consider just getting a looser converter and a better exhaust downstream of it. Or bolt on a super60 compressor and change nothing else.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    A S60 type upgrade with a .48 turbine housing would be a good combo for a mild build in an automatic car and should get you to your power goals. The rest is up to traction..
    I am thinking that sounds like what I am leaning towards.

    Thanks

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Chris,
    turbo is long gone. It was in a TO4E housing. I felt that the stage 1 exhaust wheels were easier to spool than the stage 2,3. But the larger stage wheel were better top end.

    Vigo,
    Exhaust was a 2.5 sv to 16" of pipe to exhaust cut out. I thing a super 60 is what it will be. Full 2.5 exhaust.
    Thanks

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Exhaust has a lot to do with it. My old 2.2 Auto would build 15+psi just fine with a Super60 turbo and full 3" exhaust. Stock head, 2 piece, ported exhaust manny, S60 intercooler. but that's it.

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by unluckyty View Post
    Chris,
    turbo is long gone. It was in a TO4E housing. I felt that the stage 1 exhaust wheels were easier to spool than the stage 2,3. But the larger stage wheel were better top end.

    Vigo,
    Exhaust was a 2.5 sv to 16" of pipe to exhaust cut out. I thing a super 60 is what it will be. Full 2.5 exhaust.
    Thanks
    No free lunch.

    A really big compressor wheel is hard to turn. A larger turbine wheel can actually turn it more easily because its larger diameter means there is more mechanical advantage.

    The only good turbo is a balanced turbo.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    I looked up and all my T3T4 turbos I have run have been .63 housings. I don't know if they were not balanced well or what, but they were very leggy with an auto. Loved them them with a manual trans.

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    Exhaust has a lot to do with it. My old 2.2 Auto would build 15+psi just fine with a Super60 turbo and full 3" exhaust. Stock head, 2 piece, ported exhaust manny, S60 intercooler. but that's it.
    That what I like hearing. Did you ever run it the drag strip?

    Thanks

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    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    I don't understand how a turbo can feel laggier with an auto transmission than a manual, even with a stock converter.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I don't understand how a turbo can feel laggier with an auto transmission than a manual, even with a stock converter.
    When your boost threshold is above torque converter stall speed... it sucks.
    Mike Marra
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  17. #17
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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    what is boost threshold? As in where the turbo is most effecient for that level of boost on that engine? Or when maximum boost is achieved?

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by going4speed View Post
    what is boost threshold? As in where the turbo is most effecient for that level of boost on that engine? Or when maximum boost is achieved?
    https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/node/117

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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by unluckyty View Post
    That what I like hearing. Did you ever run it the drag strip?

    Thanks
    Stock T2 turbo, Stock i/c, and stock exhaust it went 14.3.@15psi. Never got it back out with the S60 turbo, 3" and upgraded i/c. Fun street car being a luxury looking New Yorker. Floor it off the line, the car next you you jumps ahead thinking he's gonna win, He get's his rear bumper to your front bumper, 3/4's of the way across the intersection the boost hits hard and fast and before you get to the crosswalk on the other side you're gone.

    When I 1st put on the S60 i/c I was on my way home, Some Hemi Ram with blue headlights was coming up behind moving through traffic, when we got stuck at a light. My lane ended on the other side of the intersection. I was just going to let him go since he was going faster than me anyway and I knew he wouldn't hold me up on the other side. So the light turns green, I was easy on the gas but still had a better reaction time than him. He floors it, get's just ahead of me and I though to myself, "nahh this isn't happening" jump on it, Blow by him like he's stopped, get over in his lane and back out of it, look down and the speedo says 67mph in a 30. I let the car coast down to 35 and then get stuck at another light about 1/2 mile down the road. Hemi ram wants to go again. I'm done, he lost tough luck. So light turns green I get back up to 35, go another 1/4 mile or so and turn on the street I live on. About 1/8th of a mile down the that street I look back to see a cop with his lights ablaze come tearing around the corner. Now I sat at that 2nd light for a good 30 seconds or more, did 35mph for 3/4's of a mile and am still 1/8th of a mile off the main road so I''m like "where's this guy going?" I slow and pull over so he can go around me. "Oh What the hell" he's pulling in behind me. So He comes up, starts with the "do you know how fast you were going?!?" speech. I'm like " uh-35mph? cause hell it's been so long he couldn't of seen me do what I did. He tells me it was a hell of a lot faster than that, I ask him where he saw me going faster, he replys, I didn't know exactly where he said he was till way later. I don't admit to anything, he goes back to his car where we sit for 30 minutes because A) he doesn't have me on radar or laser and didn't pace me and B) he only got maybe a 1/2 second glimpse of me going by where he was sitting. He comes back with a wreckless driving ticket in the 2nd degree. I thought that was pretty extreme considering at that moment it was just me and Hemi Ram on the road. So I take a pic of my car from the side, google maps printout showing it's 500ft from where I was at the 1st light to where the cop was sitting on a side road out of my view. Told the judge there was no way grandma car could go that fast in that short of distance and walked out with a 1-5mph over ticket.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I don't understand how a turbo can feel laggier with an auto transmission than a manual, even with a stock converter.

    Cause the Auto sucks so much power it's a dog down low anyways? Least with a manual you have some gearing to help you out till the boost hits.

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    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Upgraded turbo/ auto trans

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    When your boost threshold is above torque converter stall speed... it sucks.
    Which is the problem with auto guys here. They want too big of a turbo for the stock converter they want to keep running. Obsessing about a few MPG on the highway and shortchanging a proper setup seems preferred. Tight converter AND long gearing for MPG is the opposite way you want to go yet people seem to want that AND a big turbo. You can use a tighter converter if you do a v6 and a smallish turbo but economy will still be hurt. No free lunch

    If you build a 2.2L 5 speed that has boost threshold around 3500, what would it feel like in 1st gear from idle? Hopeless? Pretty sure you would slip the clutch to fix that problem. Auto guys have a permanent fix that many avoid.


    In the V8 turbo world, auto guys run massive turbos compared to their displacement, and its all due to the torque converter. It makes messing with compressor maps almost useless. The manual guys can't run those same big turbos.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 03-20-2015 at 06:15 AM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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