Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 40 of 40

Thread: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

  1. #21
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Hazelwood, MO
    Posts
    6,566

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    I used to run an aluminum flywheel. For a slightly modified type application in our cars I think they are fine. I wasn't making any sort of "serious" power, but I had a full weight car and a decent amount of torque for a 2.2. I daily drove the thing...parking lots, stop and go, hills. This type of driving makes lots of heat. I also tried to drag race it (street tires). I would start the night with lower rpm launches (and bogged badly usually) and work my way up to higher rpm by the end. We had very long wait times between runs (a lot of the time an hour or more). I would always end up having the clutch slip on my by the end of the night. I burned the crap out of that flywheel.

    Just like brakes, the flywheel also acts as a thermal heat sink. Aluminum may transfer better than steel, but steel absorbs more heat. Because there is a contact issue with these flywheels, the friction surface ends up absorbing all the heat it can before going over the operating threshold of the clutch quicker than it can transfer that heat to the aluminum part. More contact will certainly help, but due to the different expansion rates of the materials, improved contact at elevated temps will prove challenging. A paste would be something to try as they are deigned for elevated temperatures, BUT it cannot go liquid until over at least 1500*F. I propose a dead soft copper or aluminum gasket between the two parts. This would allow for the different expansion rates while also allowing contact to remain because it deform to the needed shape.

  2. #22
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Sherwood Park Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    1,640

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Slightly off topic, but Smokey Yunick wrote in one of his books about using clutch/flywheel air turbulence to achieve some supercharge effect. He claimed he could achieve some positive pressure above approx. 5000 rpm so there must be some method of circulating clutch/flywheel air/heat in an orderly manner.

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  3. #23
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,798

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    BUT it cannot go liquid until over at least 1500*F
    I doubt it would matter what the paste was doing if the aluminum part of the flywheel liquefied first..

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  4. #24
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Hazelwood, MO
    Posts
    6,566

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    I was more thinking of how hot the steel friction surface can get. I wouldn't expect the aluminum to get that hot.

  5. #25
    Hybrid booster
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Trucksville, PA
    Posts
    481

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    I doubt it would matter what the paste was doing if the aluminum part of the flywheel liquefied first..
    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    I was more thinking of how hot the steel friction surface can get. I wouldn't expect the aluminum to get that hot.
    I would look for something that had a melting point very near or above that of aluminum.
    Better to be safe, than sorry.

    And if it did get that hot, the flywheel would be the least of my concerns I think. lol

  6. #26
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,798

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Well that's kinda what im saying. If any part of that system hits even 1200f (aluminum melting) something has gone wrong beyond all repair and you're going to end up taking it apart, or if its an organic clutch disc, putting the fire out and then taking it apart.

    Taking these transmissions out is not that hard and it's not like the insert plate is going to be destroyed in one day (unless it's intentional), so just try SOMETHING and then when it gives you a reason to take it back apart months or years later, see how it worked out. Being super picky about what gets used sounds like a good way to make sure noone does anything at all.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  7. #27
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Hemet,CA
    Posts
    1,636

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    How about brake caliper grease? Better than air right?

  8. #28
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Hemet,CA
    Posts
    1,636

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    2 to 4 times the conductivity of copper:

    http://www.jones-corp.com/en/series.aspx?id=818#

    Ask them for a sample?

  9. #29
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,798

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    That stuff looks pretty sweet!

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  10. #30
    Hybrid booster
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Trucksville, PA
    Posts
    481

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Well that's kinda what im saying. If any part of that system hits even 1200f (aluminum melting) something has gone wrong beyond all repair and you're going to end up taking it apart, or if its an organic clutch disc, putting the fire out and then taking it apart.

    Taking these transmissions out is not that hard and it's not like the insert plate is going to be destroyed in one day (unless it's intentional), so just try SOMETHING and then when it gives you a reason to take it back apart months or years later, see how it worked out. Being super picky about what gets used sounds like a good way to make sure noone does anything at all.
    By no means am I being "super picky".
    I'm just getting input from other members to see what they think.
    I bought the flywheel, and I'm hoping to hear some advise based on others' experience with overheating,
    and their solution(s) to this.
    Or even opinions of what other members would attempt to prevent overheating.

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    2 to 4 times the conductivity of copper:

    http://www.jones-corp.com/en/series.aspx?id=818#

    Ask them for a sample?
    That material is incredible.
    I think I will in fact get in touch with them for more info.

    That product reminds me of the stuff you suggested using for the header heat shield.

    Great link Asa; Thank you.

  11. #31
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,063

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    2 to 4 times the conductivity of copper:

    http://www.jones-corp.com/en/series.aspx?id=818#

    Ask them for a sample?
    As long as it really does bend and won't get damaged by vibrations or deformed and squished out of function that sounds like a great opportunity. As they are, Aluminum flywheels don't get the heat out of the friction surface. Not everyone lives in a world of constant downhill where you don't actually need to slip your clutch.
    As they are assembled, I wouldn't use them on a high hp car, and as Reaper1 pointed out, even on basic setups they can be problematic. I think Aluminum flywheels are a blast to race, rev match, etc with, but the steel insert does not engage as smoothly as the OEM flywheel. It gets much worse once the thing has failed.

    What I have hated the most about Fidanza inserts is that their screws protrude out beyond the replacement plates because the heads were too thick and or the countersinks were shallow. I had to keep reusing ancient fasteners that had smaller profile heads. When it comes to getting help, their 1 hour per day hotline that they may never answer or call back with leaves a lot to be desired. I gave up at that point after the 3rd "wrong" new style plate sent to me and they didn't want to deal with it.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 02-23-2015 at 07:05 AM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  12. #32
    Hybrid booster
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Trucksville, PA
    Posts
    481

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    As long as it really does bend and won't get damaged by vibrations or deformed and squished out of function that sounds like a great opportunity. As they are, Aluminum flywheels don't get the heat out of the friction surface. Not everyone lives in a world of constant downhill where you don't actually need to slip your clutch.
    As they are assembled, I wouldn't use them on a high hp car, and as Reaper1 pointed out, even on basic setups they can be problematic. I think Aluminum flywheels are a blast to race, rev match, etc with, but the steel insert does not engage as smoothly as the OEM flywheel. It gets much worse once the thing has failed.

    What I have hated the most about Fidanza inserts is that their screws protrude out beyond the replacement plates because the heads were too thick and or the countersinks were shallow. I had to keep reusing ancient fasteners that had smaller profile heads. When it comes to getting help, their 1 hour per day hotline that they may never answer or call back with leaves a lot to be desired. I gave up at that point after the 3rd "wrong" new style plate sent to me and they didn't want to deal with it.
    The flywheel I have is made by AASCO motorsports.
    I'm not sure how similar it is to the Fidanza piece,
    but the hardware that attaches the insert are countersunk type screws.

    Here's a pic of the flywheel:



  13. #33
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Greenville/Spartanburg SC area
    Posts
    7,557

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Seems like it should be easy enough to find hardware from Fastenal or someone...
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  14. #34
    Hybrid booster
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Trucksville, PA
    Posts
    481

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    Seems like it should be easy enough to find hardware from Fastenal or someone...
    Yeah, it doesn't appear to be any kind of "exotic" fastener.

    I may need to get slightly longer ones if I end up using any material between the insert and flywheel.
    But most likely I won't; because the material is thin enough that i don't think it'll cause an issue there.

  15. #35
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,798

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    By no means am I being "super picky".
    I'm just getting input from other members to see what they think.
    I'm not accusing you of being super picky. If anything i'm just saying that i hope you don't let other people's uncertainty or high standards keep you from trying something/anything and at least getting some use out of it in the short term and not wait forever for a 'perfect'/proven solution.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  16. #36
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Hemet,CA
    Posts
    1,636

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Although I think the idea of a thermal compound/transfer medium is interesting, I think that we need to look at some other possibilities first or we aren't being practical (which is okay too, but might actually be counter productive here).

    All we need to do is get a picture of a real-world vehicle that uses and aluminum flywheel with a steel insert, at very high power levels, and see what their maintenance schedule and clutch design looks like. If they are racing fine at 600hp+ with a 4 puck clutch thats similar to ours, then I think the problem might be something else besides thermal conductance. Maybe google "supra 1000hp aluminum clutch" and see whos doing what

    If the clutch is slipping then power is being pumped into the friction material and insert. If its not slipping then I dont see why there would be an issue.

    Have we even established that the insert pictured had a problem? Or is just discoloration considered a problem, and why? Looking at the marks on it it looks like it was not a 4 puck or even a 6 puck, suggesting it didnt have the best clamping abilities, and might have been slipping. Even at low power levels, if you are pumping power into the insert and clutch material, its not going to take many horsepower to raise both to catastrophic temperatures.

  17. #37
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,063

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Although I think the idea of a thermal compound/transfer medium is interesting, I think that we need to look at some other possibilities first or we aren't being practical (which is okay too, but might actually be counter productive here).

    All we need to do is get a picture of a real-world vehicle that uses and aluminum flywheel with a steel insert, at very high power levels, and see what their maintenance schedule and clutch design looks like. If they are racing fine at 600hp+ with a 4 puck clutch thats similar to ours, then I think the problem might be something else besides thermal conductance. Maybe google "supra 1000hp aluminum clutch" and see whos doing what

    If the clutch is slipping then power is being pumped into the friction material and insert. If its not slipping then I dont see why there would be an issue.

    Have we even established that the insert pictured had a problem? Or is just discoloration considered a problem, and why? Looking at the marks on it it looks like it was not a 4 puck or even a 6 puck, suggesting it didnt have the best clamping abilities, and might have been slipping. Even at low power levels, if you are pumping power into the insert and clutch material, its not going to take many horsepower to raise both to catastrophic temperatures.
    They almost all move onto multi disc setups.

    Single disc setups on high power setups tend to have a lot of problems. The Fidanzas for 6g72 AWD twin turbo vehicles are known to completely deform at 500-600whp with the heat put into them. The clutches are not slipping by themselves, people are doing what is necessary to move out of the hole. The average Aluminum flywheel can't handle it. If it makes you feel any better, RPS aluminum flywheels in the same application handle a lot more abuse.

    If we just move past the obvious problem and try to bench race some more with zero evidence to be shown by people who still have faith, first figure out how to make that much power, then go play around with a flywheel. Most of us just want to remove complications at that point. You can muck one up with a 3 puck and they just don't have the same friction that the stock flywheel provides when the clutch starts getting hot.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  18. #38
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,063

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    Seems like it should be easy enough to find hardware from Fastenal or someone...
    I kinda believe that if Fidanza doesn't even know how their flywheels go together that they should stop selling them. If you can't even provide the right bolts, close up shop. I received multiple kids over a 5 year span with cheaper bulky fastener heads. Maybe if you want your fastener head to be the first thing that your clutch wears in....

    Who has a 1 hr a day hotline that is almost never answered? Someone who knows their products have problems.

    BTW, the above mentioned RPS aluminum plate has a friction surface made of 4 pieces.
    This RPS flywheel will bolt up to your 8 bolt crankshaft but the spacing is wrong and the clutch won't fit into our bellhousing. We could probably fit their multidisc stuff...but no real point if you have to get a custom flywheel to make the throwout spacing work.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  19. #39
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Posts
    2,133

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    I don't know what brand mine is but none of the bolts stick out past the insert. It started slipping a bit with a t2/t3 clutch from fwd. L body with a t2 setup running about 14psi. I bought it used and never replaced the insert though. It looked fine so i just scuffed it up a little bit with a wiz wheel lol. It went about 5k miles before it started slipping.

  20. #40
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Greenville/Spartanburg SC area
    Posts
    7,557

    Re: Cooling the Clutch and flywheel...

    I've got a Fidanza that's been resurfaced I'm gonna try out.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Transmission Centerforce DF clutch for 3.0L (and flywheel) and Gauges
    By dodgeshadowchik in forum Parts For Sale
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-10-2011, 05:49 PM
  2. Clutch -> Flywheel Torque
    By samishii23 in forum Transmission
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-01-2009, 02:32 AM
  3. Transmission NEW TU Clutch and Aluminum Flywheel
    By TurboOmni08 in forum Parts For Sale
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-01-2009, 11:13 PM
  4. flywheel/clutch question
    By 2.5L_Turbo_Sundance in forum Transmission
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-10-2009, 12:34 AM
  5. Some 3.0L Flywheel and Clutch Issues...
    By nmw2006 in forum 3.0L V6 Turbo Engines!
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-22-2008, 07:48 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •