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Thread: Power to the people!!!

  1. #21
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    well what kind of power do you wanna make for testing?

    basically the way I see it is the 46 trim compressor map is MAXED out at just below 400hp (around there at least).

    you still running stock valves and only small amount of porting in the head (which could be ok) will need a "higher" psi to make the power.

    so if you have to run higher psi and are out of the compressor housing efficiency range in, then you might not even get to the 400hp "goal", might not even make 380?

    so its just the combo of 46 trim and small amount of head porting/valves to wont let you make more power. 50 trim would prob be perfect, 450ish capable, but it would need to be in the correct housing, and then you'd have to modify that to clear the head.

    this is only why I brought up the "he-3xx" holset, the turbo "can" be had for cheap and more than capable and shouldn't have any lag problems especially on a 2.5. but you wont be able to test swingvalves with it, and as ondonti stated, the " 4" " downpipe can be a pain sometimes. im looking into this now, my friend does a lot of diesel aftermarket exhausts so il see what he can locate as far as take offs or aftermarket...

  2. #22
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    well what kind of power do you wanna make for testing?

    basically the way I see it is the 46 trim compressor map is MAXED out at just below 400hp (around there at least).

    you still running stock valves and only small amount of porting in the head (which could be ok) will need a "higher" psi to make the power.

    so if you have to run higher psi and are out of the compressor housing efficiency range in, then you might not even get to the 400hp "goal", might not even make 380?

    so its just the combo of 46 trim and small amount of head porting/valves to wont let you make more power. 50 trim would prob be perfect, 450ish capable, but it would need to be in the correct housing, and then you'd have to modify that to clear the head.

    this is only why I brought up the "he-3xx" holset, the turbo "can" be had for cheap and more than capable and shouldn't have any lag problems especially on a 2.5. but you wont be able to test swingvalves with it, and as ondonti stated, the " 4" " downpipe can be a pain sometimes. im looking into this now, my friend does a lot of diesel aftermarket exhausts so il see what he can locate as far as take offs or aftermarket...
    The goal of the testing is to see what kind of power can be made with certain parts that are off-the-shelf (including some new ones i.e. BMFi and huge swingvalve) and/or require very little custom work, so that anyone can do it.

    Re the compressor map for the 46. I would really like to see the maps for my turbo, both the compressors and the turbine, but given all the weird combinations of housings and this compressor wheel, I'm not sure which, if any, maps there are for it. Isnt the case that someone simply took the 46 trim wheel from whatever turbo it was originally designed into by someone (Garrett? Mitsu? Turbonetics?) and then took some other unrelated housing (mine), machined it bigger, and put the wheel into that? And so no compressor map for that combo was ever made was it?

  3. #23
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Isnt the case that someone simply took the 46 trim wheel from whatever turbo it was originally designed into by someone (Garrett? Mitsu? Turbonetics?) and then took some other unrelated housing (mine), machined it bigger, and put the wheel into that? And so no compressor map for that combo was ever made was it?
    this very true, and if you have a turbonetics comp housing, then I believe it to be a super 60 made to accept the 46 trim (also a "garrett" wheel). Its gonna be tough call on what it can make, but if your happy with testing at a 380hp level, then that might be attainable. what will be nice is to see the different psi needed to make that with different combos of parts and same turbo (cam swap, swingvalve, downpipes, maybe intake, and?)

    good luck!

  4. #24
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    You're correct. The E housing wheel was put in the TII cover and no real engineering work was done there.

  5. #25
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    You're correct. The E housing wheel was put in the TII cover and no real engineering work was done there.
    rats I would have really liked to see a compressor map for it oh well

  6. #26
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    waaa! why bother then

    I think its got to be more than that, I think it reached 300hp with stock intake and exhaust manifold, swirl head, no H20 Injection, and an off the shelf stage 5 tune, at 28psi. No port matching, nothing touched. Stock cam. Basing that off 9.025 1/8th in daytona with a passenger, on slicks. Bottle of 104+ octane booster in 1/4 tank of gas. But otherwise still 91 octane.

    The cam, matching everything, porting out the exhaust manifold, fine-tuning the tune, BMF intake, and huge swingvalve has all gotta result in at least 20% more flow.

    Hmm I guess that would be 360hp.

    Another way to look at it is that 1/8th mile time was basically 7hp/psi, which is very close to stock isnt it? Just extended up to 28psi. If I can get that to 10hp/psi thats more like 390hp.
    What HP will the chosen turbo support? The turbo chosen will limit the max HP able to be made! How much air/cfm does a 46 to4e wheel move?

  7. #27
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by glhs875 View Post
    How much air/cfm does a 46 to4e wheel move?
    The drop down box here provides all the flow numbers for the Garrett T04E compressor wheels.

    http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/hybr...ers-p-139.html


    Chris-TU
    Chris Wright www.TurbosUnleashed.com Chris@TurbosUnleashed.com 602-76-BOOST Tech/Sales#: Monday-Saturday 9AM-7PM MST Proudly Serving the Turbo-Mopar Community since 1997 TU is a performance, not marketing company. We provide accurate performance data on all our performance products. Fabricating data to make us appear better is just not our style. Do the research before you buy. ROCK BOTTOM PRICES WITHOUT THE HIDDEN HANDLING FEES.... -----HOME OF THE 9 SECOND FWD T-M CLUTCH-----

  8. #28
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    The goal of the testing is to see what kind of power can be made with certain parts that are off-the-shelf (including some new ones i.e. BMFi and huge swingvalve) and/or require very little custom work, so that anyone can do it.

    Re the compressor map for the 46. I would really like to see the maps for my turbo, both the compressors and the turbine, but given all the weird combinations of housings and this compressor wheel, I'm not sure which, if any, maps there are for it. Isnt the case that someone simply took the 46 trim wheel from whatever turbo it was originally designed into by someone (Garrett? Mitsu? Turbonetics?) and then took some other unrelated housing (mine), machined it bigger, and put the wheel into that? And so no compressor map for that combo was ever made was it?
    The smaller housing will mean you lose compression efficiency so the compressor discharge will be hotter. That means 28psi of hotter air will tax your intercooler setup harder and cause more exhaust backpressure if you are referencing 28psi at the intake manifold and not at the compressor housing (because your turbo will be actually creating much more than 28psi to overcome the pressure drop that is exaggerated by increased heat which means less density but more pressure).

    I really don't know how anyone could compare a stage 1 T31 turbine wheel to a Holset. Its not comparable. There are a lot of members who will spend more for a smaller more responsive turbo. If you want 350hp than a smaller more responsive turbo would be more fun for most people to drive.

    The hybrid small cover turbo is actually a good choice in my opinion because average people should be able to expect similar or better results when they step up the turbo quality or size.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  9. #29
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    waaa! why bother then

    I think its got to be more than that, I think it reached 300hp with stock intake and exhaust manifold, swirl head, no H20 Injection, and an off the shelf stage 5 tune, at 28psi. No port matching, nothing touched. Stock cam. Basing that off 9.025 1/8th in daytona with a passenger, on slicks. Bottle of 104+ octane booster in 1/4 tank of gas. But otherwise still 91 octane.

    The cam, matching everything, porting out the exhaust manifold, fine-tuning the tune, BMF intake, and huge swingvalve has all gotta result in at least 20% more flow.

    Hmm I guess that would be 360hp.

    Another way to look at it is that 1/8th mile time was basically 7hp/psi, which is very close to stock isnt it? Just extended up to 28psi. If I can get that to 10hp/psi thats more like 390hp.

    I built a .030 over 2.5 for a customer that had a port matched stock valve G-head w/stock cam, portmatched 1 piece intake, ported stock exhaust manifold, with a full 50 trim to4e compressor and .63 turbine (great spool up), with I think a 2.5" down pipe, 3" at the most. There are a few details I have forgotten over the years on the exact build. Anyway, the engine was in an 86 Charger. With the boost set 18 to 20 psi and on slicks,the car would run 8.20's in the 1/8th! The combo had a lot more potential left in it! I was surprised!

  10. #30
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    The drop down box here provides all the flow numbers for the Garrett T04E compressor wheels.

    http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/hybr...ers-p-139.html


    Chris-TU
    Thanks Chris. I think the question is, what happens to the map when those wheels are put in a housing different than what they were mapped in. I.e. the weird turbo I have

  11. #31
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    heres the turbo we've been talking about BTW..although I bought it in 2007 so Im not sure if FWDP is selling exactly the same thing, but I remember it being the "super46". Its only $800 not $1600 like I said. I think the $1600 was just the total of the order I placed which had a ton of other stuff:

    http://www.fwdperformance.com/Store/...&ProductID=449


    t04 cover that is bigger than a t04b and a hair smaller than a t04e compressor section, with a super 46 comp. wheel and T3 F1 turbine wheel in a .63 chrys. housing. This combination offers the low inertia and fast boost response of the lightweight T3 turbine wheel and the high-airflow characteristics of the T04 compressor family. Supports up to 360 whp. Does not include swingvalve assembly or wastegate actuator and bracket)

  12. #32
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    The hybrid small cover turbo is actually a good choice in my opinion because average people should be able to expect similar or better results when they step up the turbo quality or size.
    Yes this is another reason I'm okay with using this one for testing. I figured other peoples results can only get better, unless they go mitsu lol. Although at some point it will be come a limit when I cant get data from 450hp+. But a good starting point.

  13. #33
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Thanks Chris. I think the question is, what happens to the map when those wheels are put in a housing different than what they were mapped in. I.e. the weird turbo I have
    This is what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    The smaller housing will mean you lose compression efficiency so the compressor discharge will be hotter. That means 28psi of hotter air will tax your intercooler setup harder and cause more exhaust backpressure if you are referencing 28psi at the intake manifold and not at the compressor housing (because your turbo will be actually creating much more than 28psi to overcome the pressure drop that is exaggerated by increased heat which means less density but more pressure). Your shaft is having to spin faster than it should to create the same boost number and the air is less dense (hotter).
    Also, since you are spinning the turbo faster to make the same power, you will run out of flow sooner. At some point you hit choke flow and this will move choke flow to the left as it knocks down all the efficiencies. Best comparison is going to be of real life cars. See what HP each version of compressor cover maxes out at and you can guess how much flow has been lost vs optimal compressor cover.
    People still make decent power with small covers, there are a lot of platforms that use giant wheels in tiny compressor covers. The downside for them is that they don't realize the complete potential for their compressor wheels BUT they retain OEM packaging and fitment. Usually people are very happy with the tradeoff.

    Here is a very extreme example used by Mitsubishi guys. I would rather have the proper cover. These compressor wheels should probably make 500whp but they enable a once 175whp turbo to make 350+whp without changing anything but internals. People love that kinda stuff and these sell much better than stuff that says "some hammering required." There was a TI-AL version made once to help offset some of the lag.

    Last edited by Ondonti; 01-26-2015 at 05:23 AM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  14. #34
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    Re: Power to the people!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    heres the turbo we've been talking about BTW..although I bought it in 2007 so Im not sure if FWDP is selling exactly the same thing, but I remember it being the "super46". Its only $800 not $1600 like I said. I think the $1600 was just the total of the order I placed which had a ton of other stuff:

    http://www.fwdperformance.com/Store/...&ProductID=449


    t04 cover that is bigger than a t04b and a hair smaller than a t04e compressor section, with a super 46 comp. wheel and T3 F1 turbine wheel in a .63 chrys. housing. This combination offers the low inertia and fast boost response of the lightweight T3 turbine wheel and the high-airflow characteristics of the T04 compressor family. Supports up to 360 whp. Does not include swingvalve assembly or wastegate actuator and bracket)
    That's the turbo I chose, but with a .48 housing. As far as good power and response, I'm very happy with it.

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