Power to the people!!!

[acannell]

Ive been shaping up what engine I'm going to get my Daytona to.

The idea is to create a good platform for developing parts that anyone could afford, as well as a tested and verified engine as a whole that shows those parts combined and what sort of power level can be expected with them, without anything that requires special fabrication skills or one-of-a-kind components.

Any guesses as to what power level will be reached?

Block: common block 0.030" over, 2.5L
Pistons: forged, copy of stock design, no special features

Head: G-head with mild sandpaper roll cleanup of ports and CC, with port matching to both manifolds.
Valves: stock size
Cam: off-the-shelf F4, R5, or similar
Springs: High quality for the cam (not stock)
4th cylinder coolant mod

Turbo:
Smallest hybrid kit from FWDP (they started selling it again I believe)
"Polished Turbonetics s-60 TII" compressor housing cut for 46 t04e wheel.
0.63" chrysler turbine housing with stage 1 wheel.

Intercooler:
4 core equivalent with 2.5" plumbing + H20 injection

Throttle: 58mm chrysler

Intake manifold: BMF

Exhaust manifold: port matched/smoothed/enlarged stock

Swingvalve: Design in progress. 3.5"+ OD, 4.5" CLR+ mandrel bend with separate wastegate path to somewhere on downpipe (not true external, but "divorced & internal")

Tune: custom, will be fine tuned without using a dyno, but with AFR datalogging, on the street. So whatever that can yield.

Boost: 3 bar map, maxed out boost limited by detonation only

Some kind of balancing to account for change in pistons from stock to forged. (unless there is a way to avoid this).

I think all of the above could be accomplished by anyone who plans to assemble their engine themselves and wouldnt require fabricating any special parts.

Not sure what kind of redline can be expected out of the box. That might make a big difference as far as peak power.

[Keito]

I'd say north of 300, 350 maybe but not sure with Cali pump gas

[acannell]

I'd say north of 300, 350 maybe but not sure with Cali pump gas

waaa! why bother then

I think its got to be more than that, I think it reached 300hp with stock intake and exhaust manifold, swirl head, no H20 Injection, and an off the shelf stage 5 tune, at 28psi. No port matching, nothing touched. Stock cam. Basing that off 9.025 1/8th in daytona with a passenger, on slicks. Bottle of 104+ octane booster in 1/4 tank of gas. But otherwise still 91 octane.

The cam, matching everything, porting out the exhaust manifold, fine-tuning the tune, BMF intake, and huge swingvalve has all gotta result in at least 20% more flow.

Hmm I guess that would be 360hp.

Another way to look at it is that 1/8th mile time was basically 7hp/psi, which is very close to stock isnt it? Just extended up to 28psi. If I can get that to 10hp/psi thats more like 390hp.

[cordes]

Why that turbo? I think that's going to be a real handicap.

[acannell]

Why that turbo? I think that's going to be a real handicap.

Just because its the one I have and I can't justify getting a bigger one. I think it can move enough air for 400hp+ especially with the big swingvalve cant it?

[cordes]

I see. I didn't realize that you had it laying around. Do you know for sure what compressor wheel is in there? They used a lot of them. My experience with the "half-assed-hybrid" was that of lag compared to a "real" hybrid turbo. Others have documented significantly higher compressor outlet temps than the same wheel in its native housing.

Many aspects of these motors have evolved in the past years so who knows what kinds of extra efficiency you could wring out of that turbo. I think the higher outlet temps combined with the stage one turbine wheel (to a much lesser extent) may hinder your ability to make 400HP. That's just based off of my limited experience, and in reference to what others have told me.

[acannell]

I see. I didn't realize that you had it laying around. Do you know for sure what compressor wheel is in there? They used a lot of them. My experience with the "half-assed-hybrid" was that of lag compared to a "real" hybrid turbo. Others have documented significantly higher compressor outlet temps than the same wheel in its native housing.

Many aspects of these motors have evolved in the past years so who knows what kinds of extra efficiency you could wring out of that turbo. I think the higher outlet temps combined with the stage one turbine wheel (to a much lesser extent) may hinder your ability to make 400HP. That's just based off of my limited experience, and in reference to what others have told me.

Makes sense to me.

Theres gotta be some people out there with that same turbo and a similar build...maybe I should look through the project logs

[OmniLuvr]

Why that turbo? I think that's going to be a real handicap.

this, as stated for the reasons above is what will hold you back. you might be able to source a holset turbo pretty cheap still? he341 could get you to about 400-450 i think, has no problems running high psi #'s and has the 4" exhaust outlet... i got a used low mileage one on craigslist for $200 and another for $250 (the $250 still had the clearcoat on it and the turbine housing wasnt even discolored).

either way, good luck, i think 350 shouldnt be a problem with those parts, maybe a little higher... but with the 2.5 youll prob have 400 tq

[acannell]

this, as stated for the reasons above is what will hold you back. you might be able to source a holset turbo pretty cheap still? he341 could get you to about 400-450 i think, has no problems running high psi #'s and has the 4" exhaust outlet... i got a used low mileage one on craigslist for $200 and another for $250 (the $250 still had the clearcoat on it and the turbine housing wasnt even discolored).

either way, good luck, i think 350 shouldnt be a problem with those parts, maybe a little higher... but with the 2.5 youll prob have 400 tq

wow that IS cheap..hmmm

Once I finish with the chrysler-style swingvalve product I may look into getting a holset and making something specific for it. Otherwise I'd probably just keep the chrysler style turbo so I can make stuff for it since so many people have it.

[Keito]

I cringe running 18 psi with Ohio 93 octane let alone more than that on Cali 91
Remember boost is a measurement of restriction, which you aren't going to have much of with those parts so
like others have stated that turbo is going to run out of steam rather quickly

[Shadow]

2.2 or 2.5? (Did I miss where you stated this?) IF 2.2 you will peak HP @ around 6600rpm and have power well into the mid 7000rpm range. You Should be able to make Over 380WHP with that set-up easy

[acannell]

2.2 or 2.5? (Did I miss where you stated this?) IF 2.2 you will peak HP @ around 6600rpm and have power well into the mid 7000rpm range. You Should be able to make Over 380WHP with that set-up easy

oops 2.5L

[Shadow]

oops 2.5L

Well, your intake will help Kill some of that low end and make for a Much more desirable P/B with the 2.5. With the F4 cam I would think your peak power will still be close to 6000rpm and seat of the pants will prob pull nicely past the 6000RPM territory?

You should still make well over 350WHP, but the stock valves and lack of significant head work will be the thing that robs you of a little power. Will still be TQ over HP for sure.

[OmniLuvr]

Once I finish with the chrysler-style swingvalve product I may look into getting a holset and making something specific for it. Otherwise I'd probably just keep the chrysler style turbo so I can make stuff for it since so many people have it.

gotcha!

but I did find an he351 for $450 in lake forest on craigslist today, you could prob talk him down just type in holset...

[acannell]

gotcha!

but I did find an he351 for $450 in lake forest on craigslist today, you could prob talk him down just type in holset...

what is the attraction to buying the more expensive turbo setups (I think mine was $1600) when you can get a holset for so cheap?

[thedon809]

what is the attraction to buying the more expensive turbo setups (I think mine was $1600) when you can get a holset for so cheap?

I'm not even sure really. Holsets are like a godsend for us cheaper folks. They are dime a dozen, last a looooong time and are cheap.

[OmniLuvr]

they don't work for everyone, but they happen to work VERY well for us. the biggest deal is people "think" a diesel turbo wont work on their cars, when most of the holsets are very well suited to a mid range powered car (400-700hp depending on which holset).

ive got a collection right now...

[Ondonti]

I'm not even sure really. Holsets are like a godsend for us cheaper folks. They are dime a dozen, last a looooong time and are cheap.

Except the V band flange that is goofball size and people don't want to consistently sell parts for so you get stuck leaking exhaust.

I think they are large for what a lot of members want in drivability so they are not perfect. No matter how someone might claim they build boost at low rpms, another person will say its laggy even in a V6.

[Vigo]

Yeah, not every TM needs a 10-second capable turbo. The t3 'chassis' is pretty massively upgradable and in my mind has more than enough potential to suit the 8v top end flow limitations.

There are gains to be had with newer tech, but unless you have some kind of huge problem with journal bearings you can always stick a newer compressor wheel on the t3 with a range of compressor housing options/styles.

I really wish someone in the 'current' era would put up some definitive track times/dyno plots showing the capability of a stock or ported .48 turbine housing with a GOOD discharge housing (which acannell is working towards) and possibly a clipped stg1 wheel. I really feel like a swingvalve housing and compressor side upgrade is all that should be needed for 350hp if everything else is there to support it. I dont think a Holset makes sense on an 8v unless you get a good deal and can install it yourself cheap. It is way more of an 'automatic yes' on the TIII but i think 99% of 8v setups really just need a swingvalve- and compressor-upraded stock garrett.

[acannell]

Yeah, not every TM needs a 10-second capable turbo. The t3 'chassis' is pretty massively upgradable and in my mind has more than enough potential to suit the 8v top end flow limitations.

There are gains to be had with newer tech, but unless you have some kind of huge problem with journal bearings you can always stick a newer compressor wheel on the t3 with a range of compressor housing options/styles.

I really wish someone in the 'current' era would put up some definitive track times/dyno plots showing the capability of a stock or ported .48 turbine housing with a GOOD discharge housing (which acannell is working towards) and possibly a clipped stg1 wheel. I really feel like a swingvalve housing and compressor side upgrade is all that should be needed for 350hp if everything else is there to support it. I dont think a Holset makes sense on an 8v unless you get a good deal and can install it yourself cheap. It is way more of an 'automatic yes' on the TIII but i think 99% of 8v setups really just need a swingvalve- and compressor-upraded stock garrett.

As you mentioned I believe we are going to see just what the .63 (and I suppose therefore the 0.48) chrysler housing are capable of with basic die grinder work and off-the-shelf parts