Well, not every car is a project. I think most guys swap turbos, injectors, and install a 3 bar MAP. You can make a cal the gets to 90% of that setups capability without ever retuning the cal.
If you go to a big can, ported head and a BMF intake, you're going to need logging for sure.
Maybe the first question a tuner should ask is how modified is the engine. I think that has the biggest impact on how you start.
Once I get mine up and running (spring hopefully)I would like to start datalogging and tuning. I will start off with stock head/cam/turbo/2 piece/exhaust manifold, ported TB, shadow 3" mandrel SV to side exit 3" exhaust, stock I/C, +40's, 3 bar, 4" intake. I want to add things piece by piece and see what kind of difference they make.
If your car doesnt run, but has the computer in it and a battery, I would highly recommend getting the logging and flashing/burning infrastructure setup long before you plan to use it. Nothings worse than finally getting all excited to get logging/tuning and finding out you cant even get your laptop to talk to the USB adapter lolOriginally Posted by thedon809
Im converting my omni to smec but dont have a smec yet. Only the harness. Havent even put that in yet lol. I have a decent windows 7 laptop and an lg gpad. Hopefully one of them works.
If getting 90% there with an off the shelf cal is all it takes then why try to educate anyone on this stuff? Why have flashable ECU's or SCI cables?
Im mystified by suggesting people not datalog unless they have heavy modifications. Its such a powerful troubleshooting and analysis tool.
Im just hearing status quo. Nobody will know how to datalog or tune, except a few people. Thats where we are now.
I'm not suggesting people shouldn't datalog. I just don't think it's a requirement for a custom DIY cal. It is a requirement, though, that you know how to setup a base cal based on your modifications.
I get your point. Datalogging is a great tool if you want to get every last bit out of your setup. And, I think it's required if you have a radical build.
I think maybe you're looking at it from an MS type of view where you always start from zero. We don't have to start from zero.
Believe it or not, Chrysler actually did a really good job calibrating these engines for their intended purpose. So, starting from a stock cal, and only modifying what's needed is always the best way to go. Sometimes, of course, that's not going to be enough. I think that's when datalogging comes into play.
The great thing about the wiki format is, anyone can read it and start wherever they want.
For me it was easier to get MPTune working than MPScan. I did not buy the boost button SCI cable, and made my own. The issue was to figure out what to log, and what isn't important. (Then I discovered an AEM can't be data logged with MPScan, and decided to punt that down the road for a while.) My drive to install MPScan was to see what was going on after I made changes in MPTune. Both sides are equally important.
MPScan is definitely the harder of the two to set up from an install perspective. This includes messing with the FTDI settings. It's not difficult, but it's inconvenient.
This seems to be a chicken egg argument. You need to install a cal to work along with MPScan. But from a security standpoint you should make sure the calibration is not mismatched to your drivetrain. At that point, you can scan your heart out for what? To be unable to understand how to make the necessary adjustments?
Maybe it would be better to think of this as working on two distinct projects. One for setting up and using MPScan, and the other for MPTune?
Sometimes we can run into information overload, and without knowing what you're looking at, it can be more confusing than anything. That's why I like the idea of what I'll call a "nested cal/programer", one that has just the basic stuff on the surface, with the more intricate stuff further down, much like using the control panel vs. a registry edit (to use a computer analogy).
Not too many people can damage their computers via the control panel, but edit the registry haphazardly, and it's probably going DOA...
I like the idea of sort of melding the two programs, with the goal of setting "target" numbers for various parameters and allowing the calibration to self-correct to that goal, which isn't too far from what it is doing now, just substituting our one values, and maybe allowing a wider "bracket" of adjustment.
Whatever we do, it needs to be simple and intuitive, at least on the surface, that's what will make "roll your own" cals popular.
Mike
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry
Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
- Edmund Burke
Well, one thing is for sure - we clearly need instructions for setting up the cable.
The cable setup is exactly the same for MP Tune and MP Scan. And, you should be able to run them side by side and they will switch off accessing the same port. So, you can log data; adjust the cal; reflash; and go back to logging without having to close either program, or change any cable or port settings. I'm a little surprised there's so many issues with that.
You dont need a custom cal to use MPSCAN, (did you mean MPTUNE?).
I am thinking that you need to go through the whole MPSCAN setup and get logging going to prove that the SCI bus works, at the bare minimum. Alot easier, cheaper, and faster than trying to flash a flashable ECU to prove the SCI bus is working.
I still dont get how anyone could do any kind of tuning without at least logging the results post-tune to verify things are where they should be. I see datalogging as something 100% of TM/TD'rs should be doing. At the very least it works as an OTC2000, i.e. a priceless tool that will help you fix your broken old car, and help others see your problem if you can't. At best its a way to really see how your engine and car are operating before and after tuning changes, especially if you can log air temperatures and what not. Im really surprised to hear that datalogging is not a critical requirement.
Data logging is critical. If you make changes. Maybe I started rambling a bit. I apologize.
I did not know MPScan didn't need a turbonator cal. Now that I think about it, the PIDs are all in the same place so that shouldn't matter. No worries. I will say that once I got MPScan set up it was like the clouds were clearing. I could save data from driving around. It's pretty neat.
Gonna bow out now. Can't really remember much, since the last time I plugged into my car was over 6 months ago. I'll put money where my mouth is though and pick up an innovate and get everything working for some nice spreadsheets when my car gets out of paint.
OK, here's my thing - you can learn more datalogging a Turbonator cal with the AFR input enabled. Logging a stock cal or another off-the-shelf cal, you won't get integrated AFR logging, so you'll have to try and sync the data later. So, I don't know why you'd want to log anything but a Turbonator cal. Which means you need to set it up first.
If you want to log data from a stock cal, setup a Turbonator cal with just stock data and log that. At least you'll get integrated AFR data tied to your RPM, TPS, etc.
The cable setup isn't that hard.
But, that's just my opinion (and I may be slightly biased toward the Turbonator code). I'll drop it now. Start wherever you want.
please do not bow out..please say whatever you want here..we need to hear your thoughts!!!
AHHHH......okay now it makes sense.
So the logic chain you are describing is:
-In order to tune, you should be able to datalog.
-But you cant just datalog stock ECU stuff, you need to datalog AFR along with it. AFR is critical to tuning and engine analysis.
-And in order to datalog AFR with MPSCAN, you need a Turbonator cal. (*)
-And in order to use a Turbonator cal, you need to set it up in Mptune and also get it into the ECU (Flashable ECU or Burn)
Heres the logic chain I am suggesting:
-In order to tune, you should be able to datalog.
-But you cant just datalog stock ECU stuff, you need to datalog AFR along with it. AFR is critical to tuning and engine analysis.
-And in order to datalog AFR with MPSCAN, you need a Turbonator cal.(*)
-And in order to use a Turbonator cal, you need to set it up in MPTUNE and also get it into the ECU (Flashable ECU or Burn)
-But before you can flash an ECU you need to get the ECU talking to your laptop, which can be problem-prone, unless you are going to burn chips
-A good way to test/troubleshoot ECU to laptop comms is to get MPSCAN logging data.
-So get datalogging working, then get the Turbonator base cal working so you can log with AFR, then start logging with AFR.
-Now you can analyze your engine, and its time to learn how to actually tune based on your datalogs.
And I would add some other reasons to start datalogging right away:
-Its a powerful troubleshooting and analysis tool, even without AFR. Essentially a Chrysler DRBII / OTC 2000.
-You can analyze how your engine is operating before you invest in the additional cost of a wideband, Turbonator cal, flashable ECU, chip burner, etc...
*- You CAN datalog AFR without a Turbonator cal, for instance, by running logworks simultaneously with MPSCAN to log AFR from an innovate wideband, and then syncing up the wideband data with the MPSCAN data, which is a HUGE pain in the A%% and I know because Ive done it. Also, its not possible to synchronize the two better than 1 second because the logworks start time only shows in seconds, not in milliseconds, as far as I can tell.
How does this sound?
Spot on.
Honestly, I think we should start on the cable setup first, now. I don't think it's that difficult. At least, I know the exact settings and steps to take to get it to work. If everyone is having that much trouble, we should definitely start there. It's not tricky or troublesome for me at all, using it with MP Tune and MP Scan side-by-side; and occasionally MPScanDroid. Always works for me.
Most of the data to set up mpscan is on the forums already. It should make that pretty easy to plagia.... ahem, document. (:
Step by steps, with screenshots of things, so forth. If you'd like, I could work on this when I have free time. I'll even cite the post numbers!
Yep, running a FWD right now that has been socketed.
Drafted the cable setup for the wiki - http://www.boostbutton.com/turbonato...ing_up_mp_scan
Needs pics, I'll snap some screenshots later and add them...
Why is MPROG involved at all? I thought you pre-configure the boostbutton cables right?
MPROG is going way over the head of many very smart TM folks who know engines, cars, and lots of other stuff, but not computers. There needs to be clear/easy path to avoid it entirely IMO.
I think MPSCANDROID should have its own setup article.
Technical details of the SCI bus should be in its own article.
The article for getting MPSCAN to talk to the ECU should be solely that and as simple as possible. Written for the absolute novice in computers, ECU, and tuning. No extraneous information.
We should "test" this procedure by reviewing 89tonava's thread on TD and see if the procedure would fix what he went through.
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/...ml#post3402065
Anyone else who is up for testing out the procedure please do so and let us know here in real time. Its a living document and will be edited on the fly to work better.
You may want to put off spending your valuable time on screenshots/pics until the procedures and articles are really close to being done, text-wise.
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