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Thread: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

  1. #21
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    A quick note on timing: ideally timing is set to achieve peak cylinder pressure around 15-20* ATDC. This is the point where the cylinder pressure is most efficiently converted into power.

    We have to compromise a bit due to the fact we also have to"feed" a turbine as well. Fuel octane also limits those of us who are using pump gasoline.

    My point being that knock isn't the best way to get best timing (although it may the biggest limiting factor).

    Mike
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  2. #22
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Are you saying here that the AFR in WOT can be close-loop maintained by the ECU if the wideband is hooked up to the ECU??

    - - - Updated - - -



    Insane pic!!!

    In your words, could you tell us beginners what the purpose and effect of moving the timing around is?
    No.

    The 3 main fuel tables are based on an assumed AFR. If everything else is calibrated perfectly, the Afr represented by the fuel tables is the AFR you'll get.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

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  3. #23
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keito View Post
    Interested
    Am I to assume my MacBook Pro won't work?
    I use my MBP for mpscan and mptune. I use virtualbox with winxp emulated inside and run the usb devices through there. Works just fine. Another way is to partition your laptop and run boot camp with windows and boot into that for tuning. Personally I'd go the virtualbox route or just get a dedicated old laptop. Booting between OSX and windows is a pain.

    There should be documentation on this online. Pretty popular thing to do.

  4. #24
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Well I guess Im in. Just purchased a BURN2 with five SST chips.
    Computer- Compaq 6715
    OS- Windows 7
    Cal'd smec by BoostButoton
    Cable- Boost Button
    MPScan- 2.0.2.4 Level 3
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    Last edited by VaShelby; 01-14-2015 at 10:13 PM. Reason: more info

  5. #25
    turbo addict
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Insane pic!!!

    In your words, could you tell us beginners what the purpose and effect of moving the timing around is?
    If I understand this stuff currently, there is tiny slot of time before dead top center when the spark will burn the fuel efficiently, ie pushing the piston down efficiently. You're trying to find that window for all RPM and ALL boost level you want to run.

    Too much advance, knock may occur. It's be said it's like hitting a piston with a big hammer, cracked pistons can be the result.
    Too much retard, the combustion is happening in the exhaust manifold/turbine housing. Major down in power (have to be in boost just to keep constant speed) and HIGH exhaust gas temperature, you'll start melting and breaking things.

    For tuning purpose, keep in mind that

    As the engine spins faster, the timing needs to be more advanced
    As boost gets higher, the timing needs to be retard

    As you get to higher boost level (compressed air gets hot), pre-ignition (different than too much advance), fuel burns before the spark is set off, can occur. Pre-igntion can also happening because of a hot spot in the combustion chamber, too hot of a plug, low octane gasoline, summer weather, etc. The use of higher octane gas, E85, colder plug, better intercooler setup, water/meth injection, & etc. would help lower the chance of pre-ignition. AJ and I was tuning his van yesterday, and after a 12 second pull, the air temp before the intercooler was getting to be 190F!!

    In a perfect world, I would have a dyno and EGT setup, so I get some timing tables done, ie. timing vs RPM vs boost vs inlet air temperature.

  6. #26
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    What he's describing is looking for MBT Spark. MBT = Max Brake Torque. Basically, this is the ignition timing that gives the most torque for a given RPM.

    In many cases, this point may be beyond the knock limit; depending on fuel quality, cylinder pressure (IE boost), etc. In this case, the best timing will be just a couple of degrees below the knock threshold.

    In other cases, the knock limit may be well above the MBT advance. In this case, going to knock and retarding the timing a couple of degrees will actually result in a loss of power compared to MBT advance.

    Finding true MBT advance for each RPM really needs a dyno. It's difficult or impossible to find tuning on the street.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  7. #27
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    How did you learn how to modify the cal based on your logged data? What were your tuning goals?
    You can replay whatever you record on the MPTune dash. I'd watch the timing and rpm and knock tables mostly. However, my engine is a bit noisy, which has pretty much proven to make the knock sensor worthless. It's either the forged pistons have a little too much clearance, or it's in the head. I drive it everyday though, so I know it well enough to tune by ear, feel and watching the AFR gauge. Not something you want to do starting out. Ideally, the engine should be pulled out, clearances checked and head rebuilt. Then the knock sensor will actually be somewhat useful again, up to a point. Hopefully I will be doing this soon.

    I can tell you though, that if you are on a stock head and turbo, there is not much to improve on over the MP cal. I have moved my timing all over the place testing, as much as 10-12* over MP settings in places and run it as lean as 12:1 (not something you want to try on stock pistons), at low rpm and in vacuum you can gain a bit, but in boost the MP cal works really well. Load it up, continue the timing slopes after 15 psi if you are 3-bar, and set the AFR's and call it good for most people.

    My goals were simply to tune it for 3-bar and +40's, make it a fast daily driver. So far I've run 80mph in the 8th on street tires and get 34 mpg if I drive it easy.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  8. #28
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Assuming that this takes off I'll look at putting some time in on mpsdroid so it works better.also if there is a large enough demand I'll port it to apple stuff.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

  9. #29
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    For my purposes, I'll look for a beater Laptop on Craigslist

  10. #30
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    I can tell you though, that if you are on a stock head and turbo, there is not much to improve on over the MP cal. I have moved my timing all over the place testing, as much as 10-12* over MP settings in places and run it as lean as 12:1 (not something you want to try on stock pistons), at low rpm and in vacuum you can gain a bit, but in boost the MP cal works really well. Load it up, continue the timing slopes after 15 psi if you are 3-bar, and set the AFR's and call it good for most people.
    2nd this...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  11. #31
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    I am definitely in, I just installed a GT3076R in my Spirit and need to upgrade the cal. Likely using a Gateway with windows 7. Will be getting the cable from Rob, have never tried any tuning myself.

  12. #32
    turbo addict
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Okay heres a summary of the people who have responded so far:

    acannell - MPSCAN level 3 and MPTUNE level 0.

    ajakeski - "I have most of the required equipment and have spent some time playing with MP Tune/ Scan.
    Some comprehensive instruction and guidance would be great. "

    Force Fed Mopar - MPSCAN level 2 and MPTUNE level 2a, interested in MPSCANDROID

    VaShelby - MPSCAN level 2 and MPTUNE level 0 (I think), interested in Tuning help.

    Keito - "Interested." Has MACBOOK Pro.

    mratliff86 - MPSCAN level 0 and MPTUNE level 0. Buying cable from boostbutton.

    DoubleD - Already up and running. Source of help.

    tryingbe - Already up and running. Source of help.

    krut - Uses MACBOOK PRO with MPSCAN and MPTUNE.


    Some questions for you peeps:



    ajakeski - What level are you at with MPSCAN and MPTUNE?

    Force Fed Mopar - Are you interested in tuning help or help getting flashing working? Or?

    Keito - What level are you at with MPSCAN and MPTUNE? Do you have any hardware yet?

    krut - What level are you at with MPSCAN and MPTUNE? Do you need any help or are you a source of help?

    VaShelby - You do not have a flashable ECU, correct? And you were able to log with MPSCAN, IIRC. Also, I dont think you ever used MPTUNE for anything right?

    mratliff86 - Will you be using a flashable ECU?

    Here are the "levels":

    MPSCAN

    level 0: have not connected MPSCAN successfully to the ECU
    level 1: have gotten MPSCAN to read things from the ECU (faults, sensors, etc..)
    level 2: have gotten MPSCAN to log data during a driving session (NOT including AFR)
    level 3: stage 2 + logged AFR in logworks/external program (not MPSCAN)
    level 4: stage 2 + logged AFR in MPSCAN by connecting wideband directly to ECU and using Turbonator cal to use wideband as O2 (very rare)

    MPTUNE

    level 0: have not done any cal modification in MPTUNE
    level 1: have modified a cal in MPTUNE
    level 2a: have burned a UV EPROM with a modified cal and installed it in the ECU and it worked (NOT FLASHING)
    level 2b: have flashed a modified cal into a flashable ECU using MPTUNE and it worked

    I think the mission statement here should be to get everybody who wants help and running to at least MPSCAN Level 3 and MPTUNE level 2a, using the SAME procedure and ONLY the procedure, on the wiki page Shel-game setup.

  13. #33
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    I guess I'll get in on the fun. I'd like to learn some new things!
    MPTune: Level 2a, using an Ostrich and w/ Burn2.

    MPScan: Level 2. Got it to work, but haven't exported data to a spreadsheet for analysis yet. You can't datalog an AEM WBO2 can you? If you can, it shouldn't be a big deal for me to hook up.

    My "rig": Either an old Inspiron 1525 with Windows 7, or a Macbook Pro. Socketed SMEC with an Ostrich in it.
    I may be able to test for the Android platform as well for MPScanDroid. I need to see if an old phone will work.
    If there's any intention to port the MPTune/Scan over to Apple, I have all those fancy iDevices as well.

    I'd like to see documentation that emphasizes orders of operation for fine tuning a cal correctly.

    Let me know if I can be of assistance.

  14. #34
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor ajakeski's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Laptop: Antique Sony VIAO
    OS: Windows XP
    Cable: No data cable, but I have a Moates Burn 2
    MP Scan/Tune version: Latest versions
    ECU: Socketed SMEC and Logic Modules
    EPROM: Flashable chip.
    Experience: Very little. I've burned a couple stock cals, but haven't modified anything.

  15. #35
    turbo addict
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Shel-game, I think we have enough people tuned in an needing instructions to proceed.

    I think first things first. Getting people to where they can log the ECU (INCLUDING AFR) and Flash or burn a modified cal. No "tuning" yet, just getting the infrastructure in place so they can.

    Is the wiki editable yet? The time has come to write a procedure. I would say flush the wiki empty (or at least hide everything) except this procedure.

    Once we have everyone up to speed with logging (including AFR) in MPSCAN and flashing/burning, then we can move onto tuning. Otherwise I think its sort of cart before the horse.


    NOTE to everyone: This does not mean we dont need more people!!! Please speak up and indicate your info / level and what kind of help you need /offer to join in!



  16. #36
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Yeah, its editable.

    I still disagree that logging is the first step. Setting up a base cal should be first.

    But, please feel free to add an article about setting up MP Scan.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

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  17. #37
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    Yeah, its editable.

    I still disagree that logging is the first step. Setting up a base cal should be first.

    But, please feel free to add an article about setting up MP Scan.
    Www.boostbutton.com/turbonator_wiki
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  18. #38
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    Yeah, its editable.

    I still disagree that logging is the first step. Setting up a base cal should be first.

    But, please feel free to add an article about setting up MP Scan.
    My reasoning is this: if you havent yet logged a run in your car, then you have no idea where you are starting from. Maybe all you need is to adjust fuel pressure and you're done. Or maybe your engine has some problem and it becomes apparent in the data. Or maybe things are as you expect and you can identify that you will not be able to get where you want without a custom cal. So now you have a reason to go and buy a flashable ECU or chips + burner, etc..

    Also, putting logging first means you definitely have MPSCAN running and can communicate with the ECU. Those two things are critical. If you cant get MPSCAN working, or talking to the ECU, how far can you get with a base cal?

    Plus, logging and reviewing the data gives people insight (probably their first) into what the engine is doing and how things are going. Familiarity with how the curves go. Its a HUGE step the first time you go from never really seeing how boost, rpm, and AFR are related, to seeing it suddenly plotted on a chart versus vehicle speed. People are working blind until they get familiar with that. A base cal is a couple steps after that as far as understanding.

  19. #39
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    You don't have to talk to the ECU to make a base cal. If you have a chip burner, you can make a cal and install it without a very opening MP Scan.

    99% of the cals I've made for customers never got datalogged. The only ones that have needed any updating are the 'extreme' builds. Its really only the builds that are far from stock, or for the guys that want a 99% cal that need datalogging.

    Anyway, the MP Scan how-to also needs to be done, so fire away.

    I'll keep working on the base cal setup instructions.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  20. #40
    turbo addict
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    Re: Who here wants to get started tuning the stock ECU?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    You don't have to talk to the ECU to make a base cal. If you have a chip burner, you can make a cal and install it without a very opening MP Scan.
    Yes this is true. But why would you do it before logging? Until you've observed things as they are with a logged run, why would you go to the trouble of buying and installing the hardware required to burn/flash a cal? Maybe the stock cal or an off-the-shelf cal (FWDP, BB, TU) is perfectly good.

    For instance, early last year, I had never logged my car at all whatsoever. It would seem sort of odd start working on a base cal, when I've never even seen how it currently operates with all its modifications on a stock cal or stage 5 FWDP cal. I wasnt even sure if my car was operating normally. A reality check was due in order to see what was what. People need to observe their engine as-is before even thinking of a cal, to make sure things are operating well or as expected, without anomalies, before starting to change stuff.

    This discussion (what should come first) is very important. And if there is truly a decision tree or some logic behind one way or another, people need to know. We shouldnt just start leaving it up to interpretation as to which way things should start off. I am only seeing things from my perspective and maybe imagining a few others, but its not everyone. Maybe the first procedure should be "Where do I start" and for some people it will be "skip straight to base cal" (tryingbe) while for other it will be "log your car as-is" (me, others). People need help making that decision.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    99% of the cals I've made for customers never got datalogged. The only ones that have needed any updating are the 'extreme' builds. Its really only the builds that are far from stock, or for the guys that want a 99% cal that need datalogging.
    We are talking about people tuning their own cars right? So in that case, dont they need to see how things are operating?

    I find it really odd that datalogging would not be performed regularly if not continuously on a project car. Maybe its not happening because people have so much trouble getting it working, and its a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Cant log" leads to "Cant tune" leads to "Someone else do it"?

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