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Thread: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

  1. #21
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    I'll see if I can come up with a how to if you would like. IMO the turbonator stuff is VERY good right now. I made one change to the 2.5 atx TLM cal and the car runs exceptionally well right out of the gate. From here it would just take some tuning of the pumping table and I should be all set.
    I started making the outline last night. I'd like to write the how-to-setup a cal part myself; only because it's something I think I should have done a long time ago. In the last release I arranged the template data in the order that I calibrate. I want to write the manual following the same order.

    On the other hand, if you could write something up about fine tuning, I think that would be great.

    My intention is to have maybe 3 sections: MP Tune use, setting up a base cal, and fine tuning. I'm starting with the MP Tune use and base cal setup. For the fine tuning portion, I think there's clearly more than 1 way to approach it. So, that section could include many examples.

    I would also like some help publishing it. I think there are many ways/formats that it could be done - .pdf, .chm (Windows help file), or a website. I can write the content, but getting it setup in the different formats - I really don't know what's best or how to do it. pdf is easy enough for me (I have Adobe Acrobat writer).
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  2. #22
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    I'm IN on this much needed thread.

    I thank you kindly, in advance for your efforts Rob.
    And also thank you for the efforts made thus far.

    I look forward to the How To stuff,
    and the "CALs by ShelGame" page is great!

  3. #23
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by knownenemy View Post
    I'm IN on this much needed thread.

    I thank you kindly, in advance for your efforts Rob.
    And also thank you for the efforts made thus far.

    I look forward to the How To stuff,
    and the "CALs by ShelGame" page is great!
    I'm thinking about taking down the cals by shelgame page. When TM was having server troubles last summer/fall, I added a forum to BoostButton (but I didn't advertise it, I don't want to take traffic away from TM) to store and distribute the files. But, I don't think a forum is a good way to distribute files and docs. So, I need to check what is the best way to do it. I think there must be something better...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  4. #24
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    I'm thinking about taking down the cals by shelgame page. When TM was having server troubles last summer/fall, I added a forum to BoostButton (but I didn't advertise it, I don't want to take traffic away from TM) to store and distribute the files. But, I don't think a forum is a good way to distribute files and docs. So, I need to check what is the best way to do it. I think there must be something better...
    I don't think you'd be "taking traffic away" at all Rob.
    In fact, your CALs page is most likely INCREASING the traffic here!

    Once members get their CAL, I'm sure they return here for additional pointers, and users' experience.

    If you keep up the CALs page, simply install TM links all over the place!
    Links to FAQs here, and members' experiences, and etc.

  5. #25
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Big fan of pulling them from one site. I like the boostbutton forum page location.

  6. #26
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    I started making the outline last night. I'd like to write the how-to-setup a cal part myself; only because it's something I think I should have done a long time ago. In the last release I arranged the template data in the order that I calibrate. I want to write the manual following the same order.

    On the other hand, if you could write something up about fine tuning, I think that would be great.

    My intention is to have maybe 3 sections: MP Tune use, setting up a base cal, and fine tuning. I'm starting with the MP Tune use and base cal setup. For the fine tuning portion, I think there's clearly more than 1 way to approach it. So, that section could include many examples.

    I would also like some help publishing it. I think there are many ways/formats that it could be done - .pdf, .chm (Windows help file), or a website. I can write the content, but getting it setup in the different formats - I really don't know what's best or how to do it. pdf is easy enough for me (I have Adobe Acrobat writer).
    I dont think a static document is going to get people very far. Its probably going to need to be refined and fine-tuned continuously as better procedures come about and changes are made to MPSCAN/MPTUNE/Turbonator cals/Tuning experiences, and having fixed updates on the timescale of months or years really kills momentum and learning. The whole things needs to be ALIVE and real-time.

    What about a free wiki site? It would keep things very organized and you could lock it so only you can edit it, or maybe allow anyone to edit it but only you can approve edits. Or heck maybe just allow anyone to edit it period. It will refine itself, and adapt as things change.

    Remember, tuning instructions are moot unless people having a working platform. I have MPSCAN logging, but not logging AFR. I have MPTUNE running, but Im not sure if it can flash the ECU or not, or what it takes to get it doing that. That foundation of getting the platform going has to come before tuning.

    So the following things need to be working for tuning to even be considered:

    -logging data with MPSCAN, including AFR!
    -MPTUNE running okay
    -ability to edit a cal in MPTUNE and flash it to the ECU successfully

    Is everyone there? Because if there are a bunch of people, like me, who are not there, than the tuning instructions dont get us anywhere, yet.

    How about make a wiki that gets EVERYONE to that point, and then start on the tuning instructions? Im not sure how many people are ready to tune or stuck where I am.

  7. #27
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    I dont think a static document is going to get people very far. Its probably going to need to be refined and fine-tuned continuously as better procedures come about and changes are made to MPSCAN/MPTUNE/Turbonator cals/Tuning experiences, and having fixed updates on the timescale of months or years really kills momentum and learning. The whole things needs to be ALIVE and real-time.

    What about a free wiki site? It would keep things very organized and you could lock it so only you can edit it, or maybe allow anyone to edit it but only you can approve edits. Or heck maybe just allow anyone to edit it period. It will refine itself, and adapt as things change.

    Remember, tuning instructions are moot unless people having a working platform. I have MPSCAN logging, but not logging AFR. I have MPTUNE running, but Im not sure if it can flash the ECU or not, or what it takes to get it doing that. That foundation of getting the platform going has to come before tuning.

    So the following things need to be working for tuning to even be considered:

    -logging data with MPSCAN, including AFR!
    -MPTUNE running okay
    -ability to edit a cal in MPTUNE and flash it to the ECU successfully

    Is everyone there? Because if there are a bunch of people, like me, who are not there, than the tuning instructions dont get us anywhere, yet.

    How about make a wiki that gets EVERYONE to that point, and then start on the tuning instructions? Im not sure how many people are ready to tune or stuck where I am.
    A wiki format is a good idea...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  8. #28
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    MediaWiki is installing on the BoostButton server now. Give me a couple of days to set it up and set the format.

    Once I set the format, I'll be fine to open up certain parts of the wiki to contributions. I'll have to think about it as I set it up...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  9. #29
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    I dont think a static document is going to get people very far. Its probably going to need to be refined and fine-tuned continuously as better procedures come about and changes are made to MPSCAN/MPTUNE/Turbonator cals/Tuning experiences, and having fixed updates on the timescale of months or years really kills momentum and learning. The whole things needs to be ALIVE and real-time.

    What about a free wiki site? It would keep things very organized and you could lock it so only you can edit it, or maybe allow anyone to edit it but only you can approve edits. Or heck maybe just allow anyone to edit it period. It will refine itself, and adapt as things change.

    Remember, tuning instructions are moot unless people having a working platform. I have MPSCAN logging, but not logging AFR. I have MPTUNE running, but Im not sure if it can flash the ECU or not, or what it takes to get it doing that. That foundation of getting the platform going has to come before tuning.

    So the following things need to be working for tuning to even be considered:

    -logging data with MPSCAN, including AFR!
    -MPTUNE running okay
    -ability to edit a cal in MPTUNE and flash it to the ECU successfully

    Is everyone there? Because if there are a bunch of people, like me, who are not there, than the tuning instructions dont get us anywhere, yet.

    How about make a wiki that gets EVERYONE to that point, and then start on the tuning instructions? Im not sure how many people are ready to tune or stuck where I am.
    I may be one of a few but I have everything working but logging AFR in MPScan, I still use Innovate's software and have to try and overlay it.
    I have successfully completed a few dozen logs, MPScan is very stable on my old netbook PC (dedicated tuning laptop). I have also flashed my ECU a few dozen times, I have probably made a few dozen different calibrations that have all successfully flashed to the ECU.

  10. #30
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    I may be one of a few but I have everything working but logging AFR in MPScan, I still use Innovate's software and have to try and overlay it.
    I have successfully completed a few dozen logs, MPScan is very stable on my old netbook PC (dedicated tuning laptop). I have also flashed my ECU a few dozen times, I have probably made a few dozen different calibrations that have all successfully flashed to the ECU.
    I also logged AFR using the innovate logworks..the problem is the "start time" you get from logworks is only accurate to 1 second so you cant synchronize it any more accurately than that with MPSCAN data. Plus the synchronization process was a huge PITA in excel and I am _really_ good in excel..I cant imagine someone who is new to excel dealing with that. Since the innovate samples at a different rate than MPSCAN I had to essentially re-sample the AFR data and interpolate in between datapoints to generate data that was synced with MPSCAN, and even then it was off by +/- 1 second, which is a long time for AFR to boost measurements.

    How did you do it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    MediaWiki is installing on the BoostButton server now. Give me a couple of days to set it up and set the format.

    Once I set the format, I'll be fine to open up certain parts of the wiki to contributions. I'll have to think about it as I set it up...
    Im going to be getting my build tunable and flashable using MPSCAN and MPTUNE. So whatever I figure out and learn I would be happy to contribute to the wiki instead of just my build thread which nobody reads.

    I think you should have a whole separate article in the wiki just on getting MPSCAN logging data using a cheap laptop. That is a major step. Then another article on getting MPTUNE flashing cals successfully, which has different requirements as far as hardware (I think?). Isnt there a special wire or something? Plus you have to have a flashable ECU. So all that could go in one place.

  11. #31
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    So mpscan can utilize a wideband output for logging afr?

  12. #32
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    What strategy for figuring out gearing? Figuring out gearing seems confusing once you start suffering wheelspin unless you have a signal from a dead axle. Not sure if traction control plus boost control can work well enough together to keep gear calculation accurate.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  13. #33
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    I also logged AFR using the innovate logworks..the problem is the "start time" you get from logworks is only accurate to 1 second so you cant synchronize it any more accurately than that with MPSCAN data. Plus the synchronization process was a huge PITA in excel and I am _really_ good in excel..I cant imagine someone who is new to excel dealing with that. Since the innovate samples at a different rate than MPSCAN I had to essentially re-sample the AFR data and interpolate in between datapoints to generate data that was synced with MPSCAN, and even then it was off by +/- 1 second, which is a long time for AFR to boost measurements.
    Are you using a Turbonator cal? If so, you can input WB signal (the actual WB output) into the ECU. Turbonator will then save the WB reading, and re-scale the WB signal into a NB signal for use in the control system. It allows you to log the actual WB signal thru MP Scan. This is what I'm doing.

    This will be in the how-to as well...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  14. #34
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    Are you using a Turbonator cal? If so, you can input WB signal (the actual WB output) into the ECU. Turbonator will then save the WB reading, and re-scale the WB signal into a NB signal for use in the control system. It allows you to log the actual WB signal thru MP Scan. This is what I'm doing.

    This will be in the how-to as well...
    Im not using a turbonator cal. But I dont want to use the innovate in the closed loop feedback. Id like to keep it as an external reference only especially for smog. Its not very reliable IMO and gets errors alot. Just one less thing to worry about by keeping it as an outside instrument.

    Plus dealing with the innovate software to do anything is a nightmare. I cant imagine how much time Id waste trying to setup something as simple as an output on that thing. Maybe it would go smoothly but seems like every time I get involved in their software its a huge pain.

  15. #35
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Grr, wiki's are a pain in the ---...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

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  16. #36
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    OK, DokuWiki is installed with a nice template and a little customization. Not ready to post the link just yet, still need to do a little setup.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  17. #37
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    OK, DokuWiki is installed with a nice template and a little customization. Not ready to post the link just yet, still need to do a little setup.
    Im actually getting excited about this!! weee!!

    I would keep a HUGE running list of questions people have too, whether they are answered or not. Then bit by bit they can be checked off when they get answered as part of the wiki procedures (I wouldnt start making a huge faq that gets answered in-line..people will ignore the procedures and try to figure out everything in the faq).

    That sort of thing could really help refine the wiki, and let you pick and choose what needs to be focused on as far as explanation and what starts getting into territory that is more up to the tuner. Plus it can give contributors a list of things that need attention. Just make them answer it in the wiki/procedure either i.e. by making the procedure more complete , but not just answering directly. That kind of thing will make a huge unreadable document.

    Kind of how when multiple programmers are working on a single application, and there is a bug list. To fix a bug you dont just post the correct code in the bug list. You have to integrate it into the application so it works as a whole.

  18. #38
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    I want to work on the "getting MPSCAN to communicate with your ECU" article!!!!!

    do we have a list of confirmed-working computers and operating systems?

  19. #39
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    This may sound ridiculous but its ideas like this thread, along with flashable cals, fantastic support from vendors etc that can actually add to the resale of our cars!!!!

  20. #40
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    Re: Turbonator Cals - What's next?

    Rob,

    I am building a 86 Shelby Charger with a 2.4. I "plan" on running stock electronics with the distributor on cam. I will be willing to be a guinea pig if you want to see how far stock electronics will work. Plus upside is that I am local to you. Car should be running by spring. Let me know if this would be of interest to you or not?

    Paul
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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