Turbonator Cals - What's next?

[ShelGame]

The recent MegaSquirt thread has made me realize a couple of things.

1 - There's not enough visibility of what the stock electronics are capable of with the Turbonator code. That's mostly my fault, and I intend to start doing something about it.

i. I've been meaning to make how-to videos for tuning for a while now, and I think I'm finally motivated enough to actually do them. I looked thru YouTube again, and there is basically NOTHING. Not really a surprise to me, but it's something I think can be fixed easily.

ii. Need a better write up (help file?) on how the various tables work. This is probably on me, too.

iii. Need a better write up for using ALL the various features in MP Tune. Any volunteers?


What else needs to be done to make tuning the stock-based Turbonator cals easier and more visible?


2 - There are some features we could add to maybe sway the fence sitters over to the stock side (Darth Vader voice - 'you don't know the power of the stock side!').

So, what features would you like to see in the next generation of Turbonator cals? Some ideas I've had are:

i. 3D tables. The SBECII has them, it's not a stretch to imagine porting them over to the SBEC and SMEC. I've already done this with some of the smaller features (dwell control, for example).

ii. Better boost control - the TIII and SBECII already have very good boost control, but they're so adaptible that they're complicated. So, I want to create a simplified version of the TIII/SBECII boost control with the minimal adaptives that the T1/T2 have.

iii. NLS (No lift shift) - Spark cut is already working, so this should be easy enough to implement. It will need a clutch switch added to most cars, though.

iv. Slew control/traction control - This would be an extension of the current launch control that would help prevent tire spin by controlling the acceleration of the engine in a given gear to calibrated line.

v. Boost vs. Gear - I know Reeves will vote for this one, if I can add it to the LM! Calculating the gear ratio is the difficult part. The boost control table is easy to add.


So, please post up you'd like to see in the next generation of Turbonator cals, and what platform (LM, SMEC, SBEC) you'd like to see them on.

[shelbyvnt2]

I don't even know enough about the cals to even know what I don't know. I would pay money for a detailed description of how the stock cals work and what is needed to make simple adjustments to the cal, IE adding fuel, adding/pulling timing etc. I realize you make money doing cals for people including cals for me as you have written several for me and should get paid for your work. I don't feel you should do anything for free as you run a business. I have no problem paying for services rendered.

[zin]

Whatever you can do to make easy.

Make it easy and the extra features won't mean as much.

As for me, desired features should include wide band O2 and a self learn option based on basic parameters input by the user.

Add a flashable computer and I think you've removed the barriers keeping most from getting into their own tunes.

Mike

[ShelGame]

I don't even know enough about the cals to even know what I don't know. I would pay money for a detailed description of how the stock cals work and what is needed to make simple adjustments to the cal, IE adding fuel, adding/pulling timing etc. I realize you make money doing cals for people including cals for me as you have written several for me and should get paid for your work. I don't feel you should do anything for free as you run a business. I have no problem paying for services rendered.

It was always my intention to support the DIY tuner rather than have a tuning business. Just the opposite, really. If it was easy enough to tune that I never sold another cal, I'd be very happy with that. I'd much rather sell flashable computers and cables; and write software.

But, you're completely right in that there's not enough info out there to make the average DIY'er comfortable with tuning the stock cals. That's not intentional on my part; I just haven't had the time to do it yet. And, honestly, documentation is not my strong suit. There's so much info, I don't know where to start.

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Whatever you can do to make easy.

Make it easy and the extra features won't mean as much.

As for me, desired features should include wide band O2 and a self learn option based on basic parameters input by the user.

Add a flashable computer and I think you've removed the barriers keeping most from getting into their own tunes.

Mike

The WBO2 input as already available in the SMEC and SBEC (well, for test only in the SBEC). I think that's just a case of me not being clear about what the current cals are capable of. I'm not really sure how to get the word out.

[acannell]

Whatever you can do to make easy.

Make it easy and the extra features won't mean as much.

As for me, desired features should include wide band O2 and a self learn option based on basic parameters input by the user.

Add a flashable computer and I think you've removed the barriers keeping most from getting into their own tunes.

Mike

Exactly.

Rob, I think you need to start with the basic foundation of an out-of-the-box solution that sets up instantly for logging and flashing, and logs AFR with zero issues or figuring out of anything. Get it so the focus is no longer on the hardware, but on changing maps and tables in MPTUNE.

Right now just getting MPSCAN up and running can be a multi-day extravaganza, look at 89TonaVa's experience on TD, and I was helping him over the phone! Its not his fault or anyones fault, I was having just as much confusion figuring it out, and I had already gotten it working on my laptop. There are just so many little technical details that its a project in itself. That HAS TO STOP. You should open the box, plug a cable from the diagnostic connector into the laptop, and be up and running in seconds logging data. No FTPROG inversion, no need to add another wire somewhere, no weird driver issues in windows. All that has to go away or people will never even get to the part where we see threads about fuel maps instead of threads about USB errors. The physical layer has to be just as reliable and problem free as a 1980's OTC 2000. Whatever it takes.

Once thats established, you have to give people some kind of training in how they go about actually tuning a cal.

I would avoid videos. IMO videos are too slow and difficult to reference. Also difficult to print out and take with you, and take too much effort to update. A handy PDF with screenshots and text is much more portable and functional. Works on a phone or a laptop. Doesnt need a functional broadband connection to play. If there are changes you can update it in an instant instead of planning a video shoot.

So back to the idea of training people. Once its "tuning day" and I have my laptop running MPSCAN and MPTUNE sitting in the passenger seat, what exactly do I do? Thats a big empty hole right now. People dont know how to tune engines, including me. Without giving them some basic idea of how to do that, the entire idea of this doesn't go anywhere. They will just opt for an off-the-shelf cal and they would be right in doing so unless they just want to experiment or brute force learn it from scratch. Both are not good for the masses.

[DoubleD]

I agreee with Asa, here. I switched over to your flashable ECU chip and cord. Installation was not the easiest. I have plenty of experience hooking development things up to PC's and I got through that. Modifying my SBECIIsocket by adding a 4-pin socket was not too hard, but I was scary soldering on my own ECU, if I screw up, my car does not run, scared me a little. After that setting up MPScan took some time to get it to datalog and to build my dashboard as I wanted, but still for me, not too hard. I will say starting to tune on MPScan with the SBECII was really complicated to start, a few emails back and forth with you and I was golden. Now that I have it on my car and functioning properly, I am impressed, it is impressive what the stock ECU is capable of. Having my own abliity to tune the car and adjust it to my specfic engine is great. Since getting all the bugs worked out on mine and having the knowledge, I was able to get my friends whole set-up up and running in maybe an hour and after a couple of hours of tuning, his T3 is running great also. His car is running on EVO III injectors (650cc) without tuning it myself, I would have had a hard time getting the car to run right on these injectors. I was able to get my car to run very good on 750cc injectors. Electronic boost contorl was tricky to learn but is now working great on both cars, so much nicier than manual boost control now.
Your turbonator cals are a great foundation to tuning and using that as a basis and doing some simple scaling for injectors and MAP sensor we were up and runn ing relativly quick. Overall I'm very happy and ready to take the next big step next year.
I plan to try and push the stock ECU next year, I will be running 120 lb hr injectors with a 4 bar MAP Sensor, Ill be building 2 different tunes, one optimised for 93 pump for road trips and a second E85 tune optimised for power. I want to see how far I can push the stock electronics and the T3 motor for all purposes.

I don't know of anyone running E85 a SBECII T3 tuned car on MPTune, so I think I am the first to try this but I look forward to the challenge.

A couple of this I would like you to work out on the SBECII would be:
2 stage boost controller (code is there, I still think there are bugs)
2 stage rev limiter (still not functioning)
3 Boost vs gear (I would love this on my car as I know traction is going to be a huge issue)
4 No Lift Shift.

I really do think a better write up would help a lot of people to getting up and running, I realize the SBECII T3 is a more complicated platform so I am sure getting something more user friendly written up for the masses with 8v's would be much easier, the 3d tables for fuel and spark are a pain to modify. (I dont like having to change each value individually, no way to scale a number or a range of numbers in the table, I'm working on my own excel exporting solution for this.)
Keep up the good work supporting our small community.

[ShelGame]

Right now just getting MPSCAN up and running can be a multi-day extravaganza, look at 89TonaVa's experience on TD, and I was helping him over the phone! Its not his fault or anyones fault, I was having just as much confusion figuring it out, and I had already gotten it working on my laptop. There are just so many little technical details that its a project in itself. That HAS TO STOP. You should open the box, plug a cable from the diagnostic connector into the laptop, and be up and running in seconds logging data. No FTPROG inversion, no need to add another wire somewhere, no weird driver issues in windows. All that has to go away or people will never even get to the part where we see threads about fuel maps instead of threads about USB errors. The physical layer has to be just as reliable and problem free as a 1980's OTC 2000. Whatever it takes.

Simplifying MP Scan setup is going to be more difficult. Wowzer and I can work on it.

The cable setup is what it is. I can't change the fact that Chrysler hard-wired their systems for inverted non-return to zero logic. The FTDI chip is the only one we've found that easily and affordably deals with it. I agree that some driver setup instruction is necessary. If you buy the cable from me, it comes configured (you don't need MProg), and all you need to do is direct Windows to install the VCP driver. OK, that will be the first how-to. I should include that with every cable I sell. It's embarrassing, really, that I don't.

Once thats established, you have to give people some kind of training in how they go about actually tuning a cal.

I would avoid videos. IMO videos are too slow and difficult to reference. Also difficult to print out and take with you, and take too much effort to update. A handy PDF with screenshots and text is much more portable and functional. Works on a phone or a laptop. Doesnt need a functional broadband connection to play. If there are changes you can update it in an instant instead of planning a video shoot.

I'm glad you said that. I hate videos, too. It's one of the reasons I haven't done it yet. I hate the sound of my own voice.

So back to the idea of training people. Once its "tuning day" and I have my laptop running MPSCAN and MPTUNE sitting in the passenger seat, what exactly do I do? Thats a big empty hole right now. People dont know how to tune engines, including me. Without giving them some basic idea of how to do that, the entire idea of this doesn't go anywhere. They will just opt for an off-the-shelf cal and they would be right in doing so unless they just want to experiment or brute force learn it from scratch. Both are not good for the masses.

OK, sounds good. A how-to setup a cal in .pdf (or Windows help-file?) format. I actually have it all planned out. I just need to make it. That should be easy enough.

[acannell]

Simplifying MP Scan setup is going to be more difficult. Wowzer and I can work on it.

The cable setup is what it is. I can't change the fact that Chrysler hard-wired their systems for inverted non-return to zero logic. The FTDI chip is the only one we've found that easily and affordably deals with it. I agree that some driver setup instruction is necessary. If you buy the cable from me, it comes configured (you don't need MProg), and all you need to do is direct Windows to install the VCP driver. OK, that will be the first how-to. I should include that with every cable I sell. It's embarrassing, really, that I don't.



I'm glad you said that. I hate videos, too. It's one of the reasons I haven't done it yet. I hate the sound of my own voice.



OK, sounds good. A how-to setup a cal in .pdf (or Windows help-file?) format. I actually have it all planned out. I just need to make it. That should be easy enough.

BTW Rob, I am still mystified and amazed at the work you've done. Its INCREDIBLE! Massive kudos!

Once enough people start tuning their own cals, you wont have to worry so much about being the source of how-to and teaching as far as tuning, everyone will help everyone else out. Its just that right now there arent enough people doing it so its still in the dark.

It would probably help if you made an end-to-end package solution that took out as many of the possible roadblocks as possible. Something that, in theory, would take someone from successfully logging data, modifying the cal, and flashing the cal, within 60 minutes of opening the box. Right now thats basically impossible as far as I can tell, but if you think about it, was easily done with very primitive hardware back in the 80's. So its just a matter of finding and killing with extreme prejudice all the little issues in the way.

And I think you should try to make sure that whatever your solution is, it runs on the following:

-cheap laptop that can be bought for less than $150
-running windows xp or 2000 (no 95, or 98 though..cmon)
-with OLD usb 1.0 ports
-no internet connection
-no working cdrom drive

Remember, people probably dedicate their beat up piece of junk laptop to car tuning, or buy the $25 one off craigslist. And thats how it should be IMO, theres plenty of hardware in an old laptop to get this job done and saving $$$ here is important, plus its nice to have a disposable laptop that can sit in an old bag in the car, that you dont have to worry about getting dropped or oily during engine stuff.

IMO Mpscan should be packaged as an .exe file in a .zip file, no setup. Eliminate that whole MSI shenanigans and needing to update frameworks or what have you. There is nothing about MPSCAN that should require all that, and its asking for problems on older machines. MPSCAN is a piece of software that could just have easily run in 1994 as in 2014, excluding the USB. Keep it simple = less problems.

If you are doing the FTPROG invert then that takes care of that. Im not sure why its even an issue then.

If you do provide software, think about providing it on a floppy disc or a usb 1.0 flash drive. Thats what you can count on on old laptops. You can buy that stuff super cheap too, and its very useful for transferring data from an old tuning laptop to the "new" computer in the house. CD-Rs arent necessarily readable by old cdrom drives in old laptops.

Make a thread showing how all this goes! Pick someone who you can communicate easily with and is raring to go with modifying their cal and send them a package and let us all observe and discuss how the process goes ahead. I would really like to see that sort of thing develop into a streamlined process.

A "how to tune a cal" thread by Shel-game would be AWESOME!!!!

[ShelGame]

Here's the tuning FQ I had started a while back. I'll use some of this material in my 'help' file. https://sites.google.com/site/calsby...o-i/tuning-faq


Really it will be a 'getting started' kind of guide. I want it to be a step-by-step in setting up a cal, and tuning it in to your car.

[Sgt Craig]

Havent really looked or searched ,but i good write up on what you exactly need to do your own tuning using your product would be good.Its something I want to get for my van but not sure exactly on what I need.

[acannell]

Here's the tuning FQ I had started a while back. I'll use some of this material in my 'help' file. https://sites.google.com/site/calsby...o-i/tuning-faq


Really it will be a 'getting started' kind of guide. I want it to be a step-by-step in setting up a cal, and tuning it in to your car.

Okay I just reviewed that faq right now and heres what I think.

The level of technical info in it is great. Conversational and detailed.

However it appears to be written from the perspective of someone who already knows what technical questions to ask, for instance, under the "Fuel" section, the question is posed "Which way do you go w/ Pump Efficiency to make it richer?"

I dont even know what pump efficiency is. Or total timing. I can make some pretty good guesses and Id probably be right, but thats the problem, leaving people to guessing. Tuning cals + guessing what stuff does is not a good combo. Thats not the same as guessing what the _result_ of tuning will be once you know how the ecu works and what changes what, but guessing about what changes what is not good. (does that make sense?)

I think the document should show a typical scenario where someone with a typical build is adapting a typical cal.

Leave out the questions and answers in that scenario. Just show exactly what the purpose of the tuning is, and then how to achieve it. Something like someone putting a G-head, 72 lb injectors, and 58mm throttle body on a 2.5, and what changes would need to be made with very simple logical explanations to why, and how to verify those changes had the intended affect using MPSCAN (if possible).

Youve done dozens of custom cals right? Just walk us through a cal that has modifications which are common with custom cals, and show us exactly why you changed what you changed, and how you did it and verified it. That would be a MASSIVE STEP that nobody has ever done before in the history of Chrysler ECU tuning lol! (if im wrong about that please show me where I can read something like that!!)

Then you can have a detailed appendix with a FAQ and functional chart of how the ECU works.

But people need to see and end-to-end success to get it in their heads how this all works.

Im a pretty smart guy but I know that if I hit tuning a cal right now the learning curve would be what I call "steep" haha! Not just because of really finally having to understand EXACTLY how our engine works, but also because I have to figure out how the ECU works in relation to MPTUNE, and that I am pretty sure is not documented well anywhere.

We need someone like you, who knows whats what, to give us a "big picture" of whats going on with modifying the cal. Do we end up changing timing significantly? I dont know. What are the consequences of ignoring part throttle tuning? Dunno. How exactly do we make a good guess about increased airflow through things like ported heads, intakes, throttles, and then confirm we got it right? Dunno.

But you know all those things! If you give people a way to have confidence they can at least get elbow deep into the process and get somewhere, they will buy your stuff! Im looking forward to tuning because its new and has possibilities, but it wont be fun if I have no idea whats going on. We need that push up into the next notch before we can get into it. The learning curve has a big step before it even starts curving.






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Other things that would be critical to know:

What are the pros, cons, and limitations of tuning on the street without a dyno?

And what are the pros, cons, and limtiations of tuning on a dyno?

What things are going to be complete guesses and require trial and error to get right, and what things can you nail pretty easily? (assuming there are things in each category)

How does a perfectly tuned cal act, and how far off are most cals once certain upgrades are added?

[bamman]

One thing that I have found to be problematic with the Turbonator cals is the documentation. I love the fact that most of the code is commented out so I can figure out what I'm adjusting, but the problem is where do I start?

What I've been doing is printing out the cal differences between a stock cal and the Mopar Performance cals. It is kinda cool knowing that only about 15 tables are changed from stock to Mopar Performance. It gives me a good baseline of what to adjust first, and what to leave alone.

What I think we need is a wizard of sorts to help me tune the basics first. For instance, it'll prompt which map sensor I'm using, injectors I'm using, what boost I want, etc. Then I can run the cal and see the results. Maybe then i can go back into the wizard and tell it to richen up the mixture. It'll then adjust the pumping efficiency table for me. Maybe then I'll want to up the timing. The wizard will do this for me. Maybe then I'll want to richen the mixture, perhaps it will warn me that with the current injector setup I'll be approaching 100% duty cycle and warn me to stay at a particular level.

I feel that with MPTune I'm just bombarded with options. I need an easy mode to help me only see the basics options to tune. Then when I'm ready, I'll go to the advanced options.

By using a wizard, I think we can avoid the Too Long Didn't Read (TLDR) mindset of a FAQ and get hands on with tuning without advanced knowledge.

[going4speed]

Computer controlled boost is on the top of my list. I would love to replace the old world tech with a newer style boost solenoid and have more faith that its going to work. How that would work in the cal I think may have something to do with frequency and duty cycle.

I just have had no luck with computer controlled boost with the cal's.

[ajakeski]

Shelby Dakota custom cals?

[86Shelby]

What would I like to see possible in calibrations? iii. NLS (No lift shift) - iv. Slew control/traction control - v. Boost vs. Gear. Those would be beyond awesome! Not needing an extra box in the car for NLS; being able to do something for traction control without trying to talk someone out of a nearly unobtainable ND box would be amazing. Boost per gear would help out in the traction area as well, especially if someone were to run a little N2O in 3rd & 4th gear.


I'll echo acannell's response about diving in and going at it but not knowing where to start. I've followed the TIII calibration thread where you helped out, I think it was DoubleD, get things traightened out; I'm glad it was you two as that stuff was way over my head. I would have been absolutely no help in those matters. Being able to plug in some stuff, run a CD or floppy to install whatever with a simple common setup problems FAQ would go a long way for folks like myself who are normally comfortable around things like the MSD 6-LS and Holly EFI systems but shy away from trying anything with our equipment due to being familiar enough with it that we realize many problems, while a simple fix of a setting so that everything communicates correctly, is well beyond our diagnostic experience in those matters.


Any which way you decide to go with this stuff, I hope that you're successful with it.

[OmniLuvr]

subscribed!

I'm glad you said that. I hate videos, too. It's one of the reasons I haven't done it yet. I hate the sound of my own voice.

my voice sounds like grimace with a stuffed up nose, ive learned not to talk while filming race/action videos...

[GLHNSLHT2]

Version 18 of the SMEC Turbonator had the option for spark or fuel cut for the rev limiter. I thought I read that that was taken out of later versions? Is it back in now?? I really like the spark cut for a rev limiter.

[ShelGame]

Version 18 of the SMEC Turbonator had the option for spark or fuel cut for the rev limiter. I thought I read that that was taken out of later versions? Is it back in now?? I really like the spark cut for a rev limiter.

Yeah. To fix the staging limiter, I had to completely separate them. It might be possible to add the spark cut to the main limiter again.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Yeah. To fix the staging limiter, I had to completely separate them. It might be possible to add the spark cut to the main limiter again.

That would be great, still running V18 on my friends van because of the spark cut rev limiter. He loves hitting it as he pulls on whomever he's racing and shooting flames out his exhaust

[cordes]

I'll see if I can come up with a how to if you would like. IMO the turbonator stuff is VERY good right now. I made one change to the 2.5 atx TLM cal and the car runs exceptionally well right out of the gate. From here it would just take some tuning of the pumping table and I should be all set.