MegaSquirt Successes Needed

[A.J.]

Whatever I end up using, I hope to be able to document the path to success, so that others won't have to go through what I have had to struggle with. I've already learned a lot from others, which is why I love this forum. So many of you have been good enough to document and keep information flowing. One suggestion though is to lose some of the attitude. It seems that some members are more about being negative than supportive.

There was a member here that was going the same route I was and I tried pass on everything I learned to try to save him time and money. He didn't have the money to go my final path, which is understandable. Another member wanted to buy my old intercooler set-up. As oppose to making the sale, after talking with him for awhile, I ended up talking myself out of the sale because in the end it wasn't what he needed.

I don't understand why you see OBDII access as something you'd want. your car was made before OBDII and the only thing it would be good for is diagnostics, which you can do far more in depth diagnostics with a laptop, tablet or smart phone (yes you can use your smart phone to tune MS) which you will need to tune any car.

If you need OBD II to pass emissions it's important. That's what's holding me back from building a 3rd or 4th generation turbo mini-van, I can't pass ODB II emissions with an aftermarket ECU so I'm stuck with a 1st or 2nd gen van.

[tryingbe]

12-1300cc

I heard the same thing. I was able to idle 120pph/1260cc injectors just fine on my 2.4 with the factory '89 SMEC (batch fire) on either 91 octane or E85. Actually I should say Harry had no problem getting my van to idle............

Take mechanical issues out of the questions, the only people I know that have trouble idling are:

1. Running stage 5 calibrations with the stock engines, when stage 5 is meant for EXTREME modification, not stock engines with a slightly bigger turbo and intercooler.

2. People using stock calibration and lower their fuel pressure to run big injectors, too low for fuel to atomize properly.

factory ecu can only do timing in 1 degree increments,

Not to be picky, but factory can do .5 degree increment.


While I understand there are solid and good reasons to go to MegaSquirt for those few, for most others, factory stuff works good enough.

[acannell]

the processor of MSIII is ,many many times faster than the processor in the LM, SMEC and SBEC it can react MUCH faster to changes in data than the factory ecu will ever be able to- that's extremely critical to keeping an engine alive when you start making high horsepower levels. [
greater control of fuel, much higher resolution of fuel control- can make adjustments as low as .1% same with ignition- factory ecu can only do timing in 1 degree increments, MS can do .1 degree increments. again, these things are critical to keeping an engine alive when you're running it hard.

There is nothing that happens in our engine that is anywhere close to the timescales that even an ancient processor operates at.

First of all, any realistic sensors installed on the engine will have time constants in tens or 100's of milliseconds. So there is no physical source of data that is changing any faster than that, except maybe for the crankshaft if you add a 36:1 wheel, but even then, a 36:1 wheel spinning at 8000rpm is outputting pulses every 200 us. Thats 100's of instructions at 1mhz and I think our processors actually operate quite a bit faster than that. What sensors would you be referring to as being reacted to much faster than the factory? Boost pressure? O2? Boost pressure has a time constant of hundreds of milliseconds. O2 is almost certainly being ignored at WOT anyways, but even if your cal is looking at it its time constant is also milliseconds.

0.1% of fuel does not make a difference, nor can it be metered at that precision by anything but a calibrated test rig in a laboratory. The fuel regulator does not maintain fuel pressure to 0.1%. The map sensor does not measure pressure to 0.1%. The injectors do not inject fuel at 0.1% accuracy across their range of operation. Trying to maintain 0.1% precision with anything in the engine is a fairy tale, nor is it required. If it were required than you wouldnt have high power builds running on stock electronics. So its clearly not.

[crusty shadow]

There is nothing that happens in our engine that is anywhere close to the timescales that even an ancient processor operates at.

First of all, any realistic sensors installed on the engine will have time constants in tens or 100's of milliseconds. So there is no physical source of data that is changing any faster than that, except maybe for the crankshaft if you add a 36:1 wheel, but even then, a 36:1 wheel spinning at 8000rpm is outputting pulses every 200 us. Thats 100's of instructions at 1mhz and I think our processors actually operate quite a bit faster than that. What sensors would you be referring to as being reacted to much faster than the factory? Boost pressure? O2? Boost pressure has a time constant of hundreds of milliseconds. O2 is almost certainly being ignored at WOT anyways, but even if your cal is looking at it its time constant is also milliseconds.

0.1% of fuel does not make a difference, nor can it be metered at that precision by anything but a calibrated test rig in a laboratory. The fuel regulator does not maintain fuel pressure to 0.1%. The map sensor does not measure pressure to 0.1%. The injectors do not inject fuel at 0.1% accuracy across their range of operation. Trying to maintain 0.1% precision with anything in the engine is a fairy tale, nor is it required. If it were required than you wouldnt have high power builds running on stock electronics. So its clearly not.

MS never ignores the O2 sensor.

im getting the impression that no matter what anyone tells you that you will never be sold on anything but stock electronics. I have thrown a TON of info at you over the course of this thread but you keep saying " so why is it better?" im not interested in talking to a brick wall...
go to www.msextra.com get on the forum there and they will explain whatever you need them to- 1000's of users there with countless real world experiences and lots more very detailed technical info that I dont care to spend the time posting here only to receive the same questions over and over in response.

[A.J.]

MS never ignores the O2 sensor.

Also, for those that are use to the Chrysler cals, there are no part throttle or WOT tables. There is only one fuel table. Well there are duel tables when you're using E85. When you hook up an E85 sensor it can adjust your tune depending on the ethanol content. That was the final selling point for me.

[ShelGame]

FWIW, the '92+ Chrysler code only has 1 3D fuel table and a 3D WOT enrichment table... Of course, very few run the '92+ computers. It also has 3D spark and warmup tables. It's been a goal of mine for a while to adapt those tables to a 'new' version of the Turbonator cals for the SMEC and SBEC. But now I'm kind of off-topic...

[mopar-tech]

Sounds like the time to unload all the modules I have here, must have 40 or 50 LM/SMEC/SBEC modules on the shelf.

[cordes]

Sounds like the time to unload all the modules I have here, must have 40 or 50 LM/SMEC/SBEC modules on the shelf.

Sounds like a good plan. I've got a good stash, but those are for rainy days. Literally.

[ShelGame]

Sounds like the time to unload all the modules I have here, must have 40 or 50 LM/SMEC/SBEC modules on the shelf.

If you're serious, shoot me a price...

[Ondonti]

While I have my complaints.....
Now, I never said its hard to install a megasquirt. If you can't do whats in this video, you can't handle much.
Check out the manual. http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Megas...erence-1.3.pdf First decent looking manual I have seen. They still do a terrible job of explaining things. The tricky thing about MS is that there are few explainations.

Simply take a junkyard engine harness, splice it into a preassembled MS harness. Wire in a mopar alternator controller. OEM sensors ( i don't use air temp).
Then you just need a proper crankshaft position signal. I use the low data rate 3.0 distributor output.
I made a calibration sitting on the couch based off some rough WOT numbers that Shelgame shared from an 1989 cal plus BS guess on fueling.
I simply unplugged the existing engine harness and dropped this harness in, added a little fuse block, grounds, good to go. Left the OEM ECU there just because I was paranoid. All I had to do was plug the OEM harness back in. I powered my distributor with the OEM ECU and just made a double ended splice connector that could be removed and no wires were cut.

I thought it was all voodoo and owned my MS unit for 3+ years before using it. Then sat down with some patience and studied the install.
The hardest thing is your engine position signal and once you have that going, you need to confirm your WB02 signal is being interpreted correction by Megasquirt.

The next year I removed all wiring harnesses and got rid of my "Piggyback" setup but it worked fine. The troubles I had surfaced when I wanted to gain more control than my OEM distributor signal could give MS without being tricky.
I am still not a fan of the traction control options Megasquirt has after reading about the BRAND NEW options as of last month. Traction control per RPM is dumb, it should be rate of RPM change vs optimum rate of change and varied along a MPH range (3d table) since gear sensing (like having a traction table for each gear) would be hard to estimate with wheelspin. VSS is cool but I don't know how that will work with a vehicle that does wheelstands (could you make it safer or run straighter?) and AWD its useless. VSS Would be great for FWD. There are 4 VSS inputs right now but you can't use them all right now.

I think it would be really fun to have a well tuned FWD VSS tracton control system on street tires. Fun in theory at least. Maybe the most fun on a road course with a Torsion diff OBX/Quaiffe. Street tires sometimes feel more confident around corners than on straights with an OBX.

My only real failure with the piggyback install was that MS stole too much of the distributor signal to retain the weird OEM tachometer.


I do take little stock in talk about timing accuracy. Tell me what accuracy most ignition boxes have
I have a friend who claimed 30 something HP from tenths of a degree of timing on a big turbo stock block 2JZ but how acurrate was his AEM at timing really?

[Ondonti]

Stuff like this for sale on DIY is some of the cool ways you can get a signal that provides sequential support, COP, etc. .

Some people don't trust something running off a timing belt like on the 3.0 but OEM trusted it for sequential running, and this brings us back to the actual accuracy of your ignition system all the way to the plugs.
AEM sells a complete device that bolts to your distributor location and takes the place of it. This device should be compatible with MS. Just find a way to attach it to your distributor.





http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...sition-module/

[wallace]

I have had success with ms2 and I also had issues which in the end were mistakes that I made on installation and a misunderstanding of how to configure the settings. The actual hardware and code were stable and worked as expected. Plan to spend a good amount of time on driveability tuning. The wot was the easiest IMO. That's the advantage of the factory electronics...you have rhe oem drive ability out of the box. Also realize that although there is a support forum for MS and they will respond when you have issues in the end you are on your own as almost every application has some variation to it. If you're not capable of troubleshooting electrical/electronic problems you may want to stick with a stock modified ecu.

[mopar-tech]

If you're serious, shoot me a price...

Very serious.

I have considered doing some tuning and reopening on a limited basis but I simply don't have the time.

If the modules go I should consider selling off the laptop, docs, cals, burner and emulator too for good measure.

I don't see another TD in my life (even though I'm still looking) and a second one is the only reason I'd keep modules on hand.

The last engine for the Reliant let go on the dyno due to spark scatter since the oil pump gear was getting knife edged.

Next engine is crank trigger only, as much as I'd like to run the factory electronics as I think they can do it no problem and poke a few high dollar boys in the eyeball for good measure I don't see an SBEC/SMEC being triggered with a 36 tooth wheel. MS2 or MS3 are in the near future for one project I'm working on soon, once I get my feet wet there the tech will get used on the Reliant.

I want nothing to do with the ignition being triggered off the oil pump again.

[acannell]

While I have my complaints.....
Now, I never said its hard to install a megasquirt. If you can't do whats in this video, you can't handle much.
Check out the manual. http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Megas...erence-1.3.pdf First decent looking manual I have seen. They still do a terrible job of explaining things. The tricky thing about MS is that there are few explainations.

Simply take a junkyard engine harness, splice it into a preassembled MS harness. Wire in a mopar alternator controller. OEM sensors ( i don't use air temp).
Then you just need a proper crankshaft position signal. I use the low data rate 3.0 distributor output.
I made a calibration sitting on the couch based off some rough WOT numbers that Shelgame shared from an 1989 cal plus BS guess on fueling.
I simply unplugged the existing engine harness and dropped this harness in, added a little fuse block, grounds, good to go. Left the OEM ECU there just because I was paranoid. All I had to do was plug the OEM harness back in. I powered my distributor with the OEM ECU and just made a double ended splice connector that could be removed and no wires were cut.

I thought it was all voodoo and owned my MS unit for 3+ years before using it. Then sat down with some patience and studied the install.
The hardest thing is your engine position signal and once you have that going, you need to confirm your WB02 signal is being interpreted correction by Megasquirt.

The next year I removed all wiring harnesses and got rid of my "Piggyback" setup but it worked fine. The troubles I had surfaced when I wanted to gain more control than my OEM distributor signal could give MS without being tricky.
I am still not a fan of the traction control options Megasquirt has after reading about the BRAND NEW options as of last month. Traction control per RPM is dumb, it should be rate of RPM change vs optimum rate of change and varied along a MPH range (3d table) since gear sensing (like having a traction table for each gear) would be hard to estimate with wheelspin. VSS is cool but I don't know how that will work with a vehicle that does wheelstands (could you make it safer or run straighter?) and AWD its useless. VSS Would be great for FWD. There are 4 VSS inputs right now but you can't use them all right now.

I think it would be really fun to have a well tuned FWD VSS tracton control system on street tires. Fun in theory at least. Maybe the most fun on a road course with a Torsion diff OBX/Quaiffe. Street tires sometimes feel more confident around corners than on straights with an OBX.

My only real failure with the piggyback install was that MS stole too much of the distributor signal to retain the weird OEM tachometer.


I do take little stock in talk about timing accuracy. Tell me what accuracy most ignition boxes have
I have a friend who claimed 30 something HP from tenths of a degree of timing on a big turbo stock block 2JZ but how acurrate was his AEM at timing really?

I would guess that this post is probably the most realistic and helpful post for those thinking about MS on the chrysler engine ever written.

[Vigo]

I bought an MSD box and borrowed a friends MONSTER ignition coil (almost buying my own coil) and after one night of racing I was back to blowing my spark out. I weighed spending more money on the single coil set-up or putting that money towards a system that would allow me to run multiple coils. MegaSquirt obviously won out and I'm still sitting on my MSD box when that money could have gone towards MS.

Well, i meant trying for a long time as in the SMEC system in general, not just the ignition problem, but there are people still sitting on ignition stuff they bought back when megasquirt/cop didn't EXIST and they made it work at high power levels and still can/do. It's more about the mindset of the user than any hard and fast 'limits' of how far you can take something.

[OmniLuvr]

I want nothing to do with the ignition being triggered off the oil pump again.

why don't you run the distributor off the cam like a hybrid?

[contraption22]

why don't you run the distributor off the cam like a hybrid?

Because with MS you don't need a distributor.

[mopar-tech]

why don't you run the distributor off the cam like a hybrid?

1) Because crank trigger is more accurate- No belt whipping or cam flex to throw things off. There is zero chance of the timing being off due to debris in the belt, etc.

2) I also have a VVT setup for a SOHC I have been wanting to do some testing... so running off the cam not practical ;-)

[Tbird232ci]

Another argument for MS is that you can run damn near any sensors you want. You want to run GM coolant temp sensor? Go for it. Running a Ford throttle body with TPS and IAC? No problem. Chrysler cam and crank sensors? You get the idea.

It's getting harder to get a lot of the smaller things for these cars, and to be able to run more readily available things like sensors will help with parts availability.

[bgbmxer]

I'd like to see how everyone is running there crank trigger setups. And what's needed to do this