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Thread: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

  1. #41
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    $175 moates ostrich.
    $10-$100 socketed LM/SMEC/SBEC
    Or, $200 for a flashable SMEC or SBEC...

    As far as I can see, the "self tuning" just change the a/f ratio to close to what you ask it to be. It really doesn't do the job as good as I thought it would.
    MP Tune also has a feature to allow you to input logged A/F data to tune the Pumping Efficiency table. It's not well used or documented yet, but it's there.
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  2. #42
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    I bought MS3/MS3X assembled, 4 bar map daddy, knock module, two 6' wiring harness', P&H driver, the big weather pack kit, coolant temp sensor, and air charge temp sensor from DIY AutoTune and I spent about $1000. Just separating the body harness from the engine harness took me eight hours. Maybe another sixteen hours (or more) to wire up MS.

    From what I read there are no performance gains to sequential injection over batch fire. The only gain is emissions and MPG. I went sequential because of the very small MPG gain and every little bit helps with my van. It was more complex for me because I'm running low z injectors so I had to buy (and assemble which is easier than I thought) the Peak and Hold driver. So it would be very easy for someone to put MS on their 2.2/2.5 and run batch fire and a single coil. The easiest way to put MS on a 2.2/2.5 would be to run batch fire, then mount a 2.0/2.4 double coil on the front of the valve cover and run spark plug wires down to the plugs. I've heard the 2.0/2.4 coil pack is good up to 600-700 horse power. There is a selection under "ignition settings" under "ignition options/wheel decoder" for Chrysler 2.2/2.5 so I would imagine that's to use the factory HEP in the distributor for spark and fuel.

    As far as getting help, no two builds are alike. Even though I'm running MS3/MS3X on a 2.4 and using all stock sensors, when it comes to the TPS and IAC I'm using '89 stuff so someone running ALL SRT-4 stuff can't help me 100% because of what I'm running. I haven't tried very hard in getting help because I'm trying to figure stuff out on my own. Miraculously I haven't destroyed my engine because I'm blazing a new trail (personally) and have made a few mistakes. I would highly advise getting a pyrometer installed (after the turbo is fine) before you start tuning. Not for tuning itself, that's what your wideband is for, but to catch potential timing problems that a wideband won't pick up. For example, AFR can be perfect but if you don't have any timing advance because a certain box isn't checked that you didn't know to check and are only running 10* of timing, things are going to get hot and you're not going to know it.

    The more I mess with it and the more I drive my van, the more I'm glad I made the switch. My engine compartment is cleaner without all the factory wiring and just the fact I have FRESH wiring sets my mind at ease. And to get rid of all those damn fusible links and get everything tidied up into on power distribution center is awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    There's not a real difference other than the fact that the 2.4 is much more difficult to get going with the stock stuff.
    Say what now? The only problem I ran into was getting a base timing table to get the 2.4 to run so I could drive it on the street. It would be a breeze to get MS up and running on a 2.2/2.5 because you already have the timing tables you can get from MPTune or someone else can just take a snap shot of the table and you plug in the numbers.

  3. #43
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by lengel View Post
    I think what your not taking in to consideration with this example is that Rob (shadow) is the launch control. He has even said himself it took years of seat time to perfect it. So I guess you would need him to drive your car to get the same results.

    But seriously I didn't think there is a one size fits all situation here. It's makes the hobby so much fun to see all the different set ups, and in the end it's up to the person footing the bill, if he or she thinks it's worth it or not.
    Yes its the person footing the bill making the decision. Thats not an answer to the question though. How does that person decide if its worth it or not? Thats what this thread is. Laserdad asking for help to decide if its worth it or not. If you tell him "you are making the decision, you decide", that doesnt really get him anywhere does it? (or anyone else trying to decide)

    All the different builds are great, but I think we need to be able to focus and answer a simple question like "exactly what do I get for my money" when it comes to an engine upgrade. Otherwise we are just left with everything being "preference" without any real understanding behind it, and then things like MS upgrades, camshafts, tubular headers, etc.. all remain in the cloud of conjecture. For instance, Laserdad and I are both asking what the deal is, and so far we have aux inputs and self tuning. I'm not convinced thats really all you get, but I wouldnt be surprised if its not much more.

    I dont include fresh wiring because if you wanted you could essentially replace the stock wiring with fresh wiring. And whats interesting is THAT task is obviously a major undertaking of time and money, but is somehow no big deal if you have to do essentially the same thing with MS but on top of that also figure out the wiring from scratch.

    If you were to try and sell a megasquirt upgrade to someone, what would the pitch be?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    Or, $200 for a flashable SMEC or SBEC...
    And if we send you our existing computer to be made "flashable" its only $125 right?

  4. #44
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    And if we send you our existing computer to be made "flashable" its only $125 right?
    Yep.

    Seems too cheap. I'll have to jack those prices up
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I bought MS3/MS3X assembled, 4 bar map daddy, knock module, two 6' wiring harness', P&H driver, the big weather pack kit, coolant temp sensor, and air charge temp sensor from DIY AutoTune and I spent about $1000. Just separating the body harness from the engine harness took me eight hours. Maybe another sixteen hours (or more) to wire up MS.

    From what I read there are no performance gains to sequential injection over batch fire. The only gain is emissions and MPG. I went sequential because of the very small MPG gain and every little bit helps with my van. It was more complex for me because I'm running low z injectors so I had to buy (and assemble which is easier than I thought) the Peak and Hold driver. So it would be very easy for someone to put MS on their 2.2/2.5 and run batch fire and a single coil. The easiest way to put MS on a 2.2/2.5 would be to run batch fire, then mount a 2.0/2.4 double coil on the front of the valve cover and run spark plug wires down to the plugs. I've heard the 2.0/2.4 coil pack is good up to 600-700 horse power. There is a selection under "ignition settings" under "ignition options/wheel decoder" for Chrysler 2.2/2.5 so I would imagine that's to use the factory HEP in the distributor for spark and fuel.

    As far as getting help, no two builds are alike. Even though I'm running MS3/MS3X on a 2.4 and using all stock sensors, when it comes to the TPS and IAC I'm using '89 stuff so someone running ALL SRT-4 stuff can't help me 100% because of what I'm running. I haven't tried very hard in getting help because I'm trying to figure stuff out on my own. Miraculously I haven't destroyed my engine because I'm blazing a new trail (personally) and have made a few mistakes. I would highly advise getting a pyrometer installed (after the turbo is fine) before you start tuning. Not for tuning itself, that's what your wideband is for, but to catch potential timing problems that a wideband won't pick up. For example, AFR can be perfect but if you don't have any timing advance because a certain box isn't checked that you didn't know to check and are only running 10* of timing, things are going to get hot and you're not going to know it.

    The more I mess with it and the more I drive my van, the more I'm glad I made the switch. My engine compartment is cleaner without all the factory wiring and just the fact I have FRESH wiring sets my mind at ease. And to get rid of all those damn fusible links and get everything tidied up into on power distribution center is awesome.



    Say what now? The only problem I ran into was getting a base timing table to get the 2.4 to run so I could drive it on the street. It would be a breeze to get MS up and running on a 2.2/2.5 because you already have the timing tables you can get from MPTune or someone else can just take a snap shot of the table and you plug in the numbers.
    A.J., this is great info.

    Can you describe more exactly why you think wiring up MS for a batch fire 2.2/2.5 would be easy? Thats a critical task that many may see as time consuming or expensive. If it can be made clear why its not so, that would help people alot who are thinking of MS.

    If you had to guess, what do you think the minimum kit of parts and cost would be for a functional megasquirt setup on a batch fire 3 bar 2.2/2.5 with standard impedance injectors? And the install time for an intermediate skill level person?

    Also, what would you say the clear benefits of the system were, just the fresh wiring and distribution center?

  6. #46
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post



    Say what now? The only problem I ran into was getting a base timing table to get the 2.4 to run so I could drive it on the street. It would be a breeze to get MS up and running on a 2.2/2.5 because you already have the timing tables you can get from MPTune or someone else can just take a snap shot of the table and you plug in the numbers.
    The distributor adapter is what I was referring to. Again, I'm coming at this thread from the angle of a guy wants a 2.5 in an LM car. Perhaps he'll state his goals by page 4 so we can make a more informed recommendation?

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    The distributor adapter is what I was referring to. Again, I'm coming at this thread from the angle of a guy wants a 2.5 in an LM car. Perhaps he'll state his goals by page 4 so we can make a more informed recommendation?
    If someone had to fab their own adaptor I'd agree with you but with Rich selling the adaptor AND the modified distributor the 2.4 swap is a breeze. The only drawback for me was blowing the spark out at 25 lbs of boost which pushed me towards MS so I could run a multi-coil set-up.

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    As I stated in reply #3, I want to eliminate the original wiring. I've worked on my '86 Laser for 10 years, and there's always something wiring related that I end up having to t'shoot. I am good at wiring and want a clean looking setup without old wiring issues. I recently bought Shelgame's SMEC for it, as it has an '88 Daytona 2.2L T2 engine and harness in it. The tune seems good, but the weather closed in before I could really test it.

    This engine is for my '87 Daytona, which I am building a CB 2.5L T2 for. It will see a lot of track days, and hopefully put out 400+ hp. I want to be able to make modifications without needing to spend a lot of time getting the tune correct. One mistake and that $4k wouldn't look so expensive.

    I really would like to use the money elsewhere, which is why I need to know if MS is a viable alternative. Pro-M gives you self tuning and OBDII access, but now I see that MS has a self tune feature, so points for MS.

    I appreciate the comments, especially "acannell's", when he stated that we are getting opinions, but not necessarily facts. I admit that I have learned so much about MegaSquirt, in the last couple days, to lean me towards it. However, it looks like most of the uses have been for street/strip, not tracks.

    Please keep this going, as I am hoping that we will eventually come to a conclusion.

    I almost forgot, I also hope to use an ISIS body controller, so that would allow me to gut the entire factory harness. That's another reason to keep the budget lower, as ISIS runs around $1,500.

  9. #49
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Honestly, i think if someone can't diagnose and repair the factory setup, MS is pie in the sky. It's one of those "if you have to ask, you can't do it" scenarios. The stock stuff has a ton of capability that goes almost totally unutilized because there are so few people in the community willing to put the time in to see what they can get out of it. I count myself in this lazy category. It's really strange that compared to other 80s EFI systems we have HUGE capability and so few people doing anything with it. The way i see it we actually have a greater supply of cool functionality then we have demand for it.

    I think as long as that is true, MS is irrelevant for 99.9% of our community, and the 0.1% it's relevant to will pull it off regardless of minor hardships because they are just 'do-ers' in the first place and their knowledge and confidence level means they would succeed with EITHER stock stuff or MS anwyay. AJ is a perfect example of this with his comment of being driven to MS because of ease of ignition upgrade. He would have eventually made the stock system work for him if he chose to stick with it because he's knowledgeable and willful about what he wants his car to do and he only switched after running up against an obstacle that changed the cost/benefit analysis, but that was only after TRYING in a real way, for a long time, with what was already there.

    I honestly think the result has more to do with the users than the systems by far.

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaserDad View Post
    This engine is for my '87 Daytona, which I am building a CB 2.5L T2 for. It will see a lot of track days, and hopefully put out 400+ hp. I want to be able to make modifications without needing to spend a lot of time getting the tune correct. One mistake and that $4k wouldn't look so expensive.
    Just out of curiousity what are you doing to a CB 2.5 that could make it worth anywhere near $4k? Worst case a bad tune will break pistons and kill the block. Most likely just break pistons. Its not an interference engine so unless you do something odd that makes it one then the head most likely wont be part of any destruction. So in other words, the parts that would die are the same ones youd replace after a heavy racing season anyway.

    If you are trying to manage risk in your build I would suggest assuming the tune will be wrong regardless of what ECU you install and develop ways to manage mis-tuning while you get it right. I.e. use a very slow, conservative tuning method and monitor knock with several methods including actually listening to the sensor with headphones. No amount of money or any specific ECU is going to get the tune perfect on the first couple tries.

  11. #51
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaserDad View Post
    This engine is for my '87 Daytona, which I am building a CB 2.5L T2 for. It will see a lot of track days, and hopefully put out 400+ hp. I want to be able to make modifications without needing to spend a lot of time getting the tune correct. One mistake and that $4k wouldn't look so expensive.
    That mistake can be made wether you spend $400 or $4000. The only difference is if you spend $400 you have more money on hand to spend to fix your f-up.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaserDad View Post
    I really would like to use the money elsewhere, which is why I need to know if MS is a viable alternative. Pro-M gives you self tuning and OBDII access, but now I see that MS has a self tune feature, so points for MS.
    MegaSquirt/TunerStudio's self tune feature is limited to fuel only and you have to purchase the TunerStudio upgrade (which is SOOOOO worth it). You set your AFR for what you want and drive. With a wideband hooked up to MS, TunerStudio will adjust your AFR to what you set in your AFR table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    I think as long as that is true, MS is irrelevant for 99.9% of our community, and the 0.1% it's relevant to will pull it off regardless of minor hardships because they are just 'do-ers' in the first place and their knowledge and confidence level means they would succeed with EITHER stock stuff or MS anwyay. AJ is a perfect example of this with his comment of being driven to MS because of ease of ignition upgrade. He would have eventually made the stock system work for him if he chose to stick with it because he's knowledgeable and willful about what he wants his car to do and he only switched after running up against an obstacle that changed the cost/benefit analysis, but that was only after TRYING in a real way, for a long time, with what was already there.

    I honestly think the result has more to do with the users than the systems by far.
    I bought an MSD box and borrowed a friends MONSTER ignition coil (almost buying my own coil) and after one night of racing I was back to blowing my spark out. I weighed spending more money on the single coil set-up or putting that money towards a system that would allow me to run multiple coils. MegaSquirt obviously won out and I'm still sitting on my MSD box when that money could have gone towards MS.

  12. #52
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Honestly, i think if someone can't diagnose and repair the factory setup, MS is pie in the sky.
    Exactly. Its a strange jump in logic to go from "the stock system has problems I cant fix" to "replace the entire engine control system with something aftermarket and try to get that running instead". And whats odd is thats actually a VERY popular logic chain for getting involved in megasquirt.

    Not to be one of those annoying cross-topic guys, but I see exactly the same thing in machining. People who are just getting into machining buy machines from the 80's that could make space shuttle parts, but because it has a CRT and a simple user interface they immediately decide to replace all the electronics and drive motors with "modern" equivalents, and dump the user interface for a hobbyist software package that runs on windows. 3 years later they havent learned any machining and are still figuring out the wiring. No mention made of how that machine probably made literally 10's of millions of dollars in its decades of lifetime making things they wont know how to make for years, and that what its capable of with its old design is more capable than what they would ever attempt with it with the "upgrade". Whats going on is a psychological error associating old designs with problems, when the problems are not there because of the old design but because of the passage of time itself. Only someone who is already expert level would have a perspective that could see what the REAL problems are with the old designs, but people at the opposite end of the knowledge/experience spectrum are falling into the trap of thinking they can see why the old designs have issues, and it has something to do with them simply being designed in a previous century.

    Kind of how your 1991 286 runs wolfenstein 3D just as well as your 2015 Quad core. The task at hand does not require or make use of the latest technology. Its still a 4 cylinder 8V with fixed valve timing. Theres no way to take advantage of a faster processor or modern electronics. Nothing is happening faster or would be better if it did.

    Im not saying that MS isnt a project in itself and that is of course fine. But if we are trying to justify it when a MS upgrade is not the end in itself, then theres not much there.

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by lengel View Post

    But seriously I didn't think there is a one size fits all situation here. It's makes the hobby so much fun to see all the different set ups, and in the end it's up to the person footing the bill, if he or she thinks it's worth it or not.
    ^ This.

    It's a decision everybody has to weigh for themselves.
    Two things made the decision for me. As stated, I had little motivation to learn how to tune the old OE stuff. Call it the result of life experience. In college, I majored in television and radio program production. I learned how to edit video and audio tape as well as lighting etc. We were still being taught analog as the the freshman, (and the rest of the world) were switching to digital and HD. That's how I ended up with a career in the automotive aftermarket.
    Of course the second reason, I no longer had the physical space for a distributor under the hood.
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post

    From what I read there are no performance gains to sequential injection over batch fire. The only gain is emissions and MPG. I went sequential because of the very small MPG gain and every little bit helps with my van. It was more complex for me because I'm running low z injectors so I had to buy (and assemble which is easier than I thought) the Peak and Hold driver. So it would be very easy for someone to put MS on their 2.2/2.5 and run batch fire and a single coil.
    I've heard sequential injection is important for idle quality. when running monster injectors.
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I've heard sequential injection is important for idle quality. when running monster injectors.
    Define monster injectors please.

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    define monster injectors please.
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I've heard sequential injection is important for idle quality. when running monster injectors.
    I heard the same thing. I was able to idle 120pph/1260cc injectors just fine on my 2.4 with the factory '89 SMEC (batch fire) on either 91 octane or E85. Actually I should say Harry had no problem getting my van to idle............

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    To me, this is a hobby, like building model cars was when I was a kid. I have had the opportunity to buy some bad as_ track cars, for $15 - $20K, that would be great for what I need. However, knowing that I will probably end up spending at least that much on this car, by the time done, I wouldn't enjoy just buying something to play with. I enjoy the build, even when I have to spend a lot of time researching.

    I have almost totally stripped and redone my '86 Laser at least 4 times, in the 11 years that I have owned it. Every time I get it done, I think of how I should have done it differently. If there's one thing that I have learned, it's buying used, frequently ends up costing you more, in the long term.

    I am at the age where I have the money to play with, and realize that my finished project isn't going to be worth nearly what I put into it. Hobbies aren't meant to make you money, except for the vendors. I have a strong electrical/mechanical engineering background, with a small machine shop to play with.

    Whatever I end up using, I hope to be able to document the path to success, so that others won't have to go through what I have had to struggle with. I've already learned a lot from others, which is why I love this forum. So many of you have been good enough to document and keep information flowing. One suggestion though is to lose some of the attitude. It seems that some members are more about being negative than supportive.

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaserDad View Post
    As I stated in reply #3, I want to eliminate the original wiring. I've worked on my '86 Laser for 10 years, and there's always something wiring related that I end up having to t'shoot. I am good at wiring and want a clean looking setup without old wiring issues. I recently bought Shelgame's SMEC for it, as it has an '88 Daytona 2.2L T2 engine and harness in it. The tune seems good, but the weather closed in before I could really test it.

    This engine is for my '87 Daytona, which I am building a CB 2.5L T2 for. It will see a lot of track days, and hopefully put out 400+ hp. I want to be able to make modifications without needing to spend a lot of time getting the tune correct. One mistake and that $4k wouldn't look so expensive.

    I really would like to use the money elsewhere, which is why I need to know if MS is a viable alternative. Pro-M gives you self tuning and OBDII access, but now I see that MS has a self tune feature, so points for MS.

    I appreciate the comments, especially "acannell's", when he stated that we are getting opinions, but not necessarily facts. I admit that I have learned so much about MegaSquirt, in the last couple days, to lean me towards it. However, it looks like most of the uses have been for street/strip, not tracks.

    Please keep this going, as I am hoping that we will eventually come to a conclusion.

    I almost forgot, I also hope to use an ISIS body controller, so that would allow me to gut the entire factory harness. That's another reason to keep the budget lower, as ISIS runs around $1,500.
    running new wring vs 25 year old crumbly corroded wiring and connectors was one reason. I also replaced every single connector with all new stuff. all new sensors as well.
    the processor of MSIII is ,many many times faster than the processor in the LM, SMEC and SBEC it can react MUCH faster to changes in data than the factory ecu will ever be able to- that's extremely critical to keeping an engine alive when you start making high horsepower levels.
    greater control of fuel, much higher resolution of fuel control- can make adjustments as low as .1% same with ignition- factory ecu can only do timing in 1 degree increments, MS can do .1 degree increments. again, these things are critical to keeping an engine alive when you're running it hard.
    Autotune. was an exclusive feature to MS, was such a good selling point that most of the other stand alone manufacturers have adopted it. pathetically simple to set a base fuel map- just drive it around and you can feel the car run better as you drive.
    tuning software for MS is far far easier to use than MPtune. have someone who has never used either software before and ask them to pull up a base fuel map in MS and MPtune. they'll find the table in MS in seconds, MPtune is considerably more confusing if you've never used it before.
    versatility- just with acceleration enrichment you have 12 different algos you can choose from.

    availability of factory ecu cores. they are getting harder to find, and they are all about 25+ years old at this point. electrolytic capacitors do not last forever, they swell leak and fail and will drive you insane trying to track down the problem. the cores have all had many thousands of miles of use and abuse on them, the only way to be sure they will work properly 100% of the time is to take it apart and totally rebuild the ecu.

    MPtune is only good for one platform- these cars.

    I don't understand why you see OBDII access as something you'd want. your car was made before OBDII and the only thing it would be good for is diagnostics, which you can do far more in depth diagnostics with a laptop, tablet or smart phone (yes you can use your smart phone to tune MS) which you will need to tune any car.

  20. #60
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    61

    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    OBDII isn't an important criteria, as Pro-M also uses a laptop for tuning. It's just one more feature that suggests that they are thinking ahead, as I don't think anyone else has it.

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