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Thread: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

  1. #21
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaserDad View Post
    This is exactly the discussion that I was looking for, and the reason I am hesitant to try MegaSquirt. Every time I believe that I can use it, I hear of people who are frustrated with it.
    Check this out-

    http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/in...c,99432.0.html

    http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...=1#Post8386001


    It is time, buckle up.

  2. #22
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by turboshad View Post
    What's the difference Brian? They are all internal combustion engines which is all the similarity you really need. I'm not really familiar with how well the 2.2/2.5 trigger code worked but I agree with crusty that ditching the distributor is the way to go anyway. Adding a 36-1 wheel isn't really hard to do and provides a very stable, dependable and supported crank trigger.

    To the OP, MS is a great system and will cover the needs of 90% of the people out there. When it comes to running and tuning an engine with many of the options like launch control, flat shift, N2O control, rev limits, boost control, WB feedback, customized O2 tables, table switching, adjusting the control of almost every sensor, data logging, auto-tuning, etc, etc, MS is very, very hard to beat from a price standpoint.

    I can easily think of a bunch of people successfully tuning their own cars on standalones (not just MS) vs. a handful of those pushing the limits with stock electronics, not to mention doing it real time and with the added features. I also think those who are advocates for stock electronics have never really buried themselves in a standalone like MS and saw how easy and versatile it really is, or they want to meet their goals and be able to say it was done on stock electronics which is of course a valid stance to take.

    In the end each to their own, as long as they are enjoying their hobby.
    There's not a real difference other than the fact that the 2.4 is much more difficult to get going with the stock stuff.

    I don't dispute that aftermarket stuff from the 21st century is easily capable of out shining the factory stuff. However, I'm looking at the OP and wondering why anyone would go with aftermarket electronics just to do a 2.5 LM cal.

    I recently put a 2.5 into my NYer with an auto trans. I used TLM and changed up the timing tables to match the later MP atx cals. With that one change an no other work the car runs and drives really well.

    What are the goals for this car anyway? I could never justify 4K just to put a 2.5 in an LM car, but perhaps there is more at foot here?

  3. #23
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    I think this is the reason why most think stock electronics are the way to go.



    Exactly. Seems the money and effort should be directed elsewhere. What gains are to be had with megasquirt?

  4. #24
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by crusty shadow View Post
    another thing about datalogging- watch the vids of the land speed runs I posted, if you look at the datalog info , they are datalogging things like engine oil pressure, fuel pressure, crankcase pressure, EGT - even how much the front and rear suspension are moving. you can datalog anything if you can get a sensor to supply the data you want. you'd have to add a separate datalog setup to do that with the stock electronics.
    This is a good point. I have also been frustrated by not be able to log multiple auxillary inputs into MPSCAN, but I've found a way to allow MPSCAN to do just that. This includes external thermocouples, AFR, whatever! Its just not put together into a product someone can buy yet, but it does work!

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1066592

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow88 View Post

    Another vote for going with a MS system. Have you SEEN the amount of problems people have with custom calibrations?
    I would say that in that case, megasquirt is not the solution, its just a more difficult problem for those people to solve than getting the stock ecu to work.

  5. #25
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Exactly. Seems the money and effort should be directed elsewhere. What gains are to be had with megasquirt?
    I've been (just this week, actually) toying with the idea of supporting MS. I'm not sure yet what that will look like. But, I'm leaning toward making a MSPnP for the SMEC/SBEC much like DIY AutoTune does for many other platforms.

    1st step is to fix (I mean really fix) the 2.2/2.5 Distributor decoder. Then there's the issue of reading the stock knock sensor (not impossible), sending the stock tach output (also not impossible, but will require some custom code). The more I look at it, the more I don't like their code. And, it's not open source and not well documented (not as well as the hardware, anyway). So adding features and 'fixing' certain things is difficult.

    The advantage is that you get a controller that's actually available. The main reason I started looking at MS is that it's getting harder and harder to find cores at the same old prices. I don't know if that's because their drying up, or the stock electronics are now more desirable (due to the tuning options available) than they used to be. Either way, the stock stuff is likely to get more expensive in the near future. Which means that MS becomes more attractive from a price/feature standpoint.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow88 View Post
    Another vote for going with a MS system. Have you SEEN the amount of problems people have with custom calibrations?
    I don't think that's a valid comparison (and not just because I do custom cals myself) - the comparison should be between the DIY aspects of tuning stock electronics vs. tuning MS yourself.

    I'm sure if you paid a guy 1000miles away to write you a cal for your car running MS, the results would be no better than what you can expect from one of our cal vendors using stock electronics.
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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaserDad View Post
    This is exactly the discussion that I was looking for, and the reason I am hesitant to try MegaSquirt. Every time I believe that I can use it, I hear of people who are frustrated with it. I don't mind tinkering, but don't want to spend weeks trying to get the car tuned, when I should be at the track.
    I think there are cases of frustration with pretty much any aftermarket management system.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  7. #27
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I think there are cases of frustration with pretty much any aftermarket management system.
    Not just the aftermarket, plenty of people get in trouble with the factory stuff. You have to understand how the systems work before tinkering with them.


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  8. #28
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    I've been (just this week, actually) toying with the idea of supporting MS. I'm not sure yet what that will look like. But, I'm leaning toward making a MSPnP for the SMEC/SBEC much like DIY AutoTune does for many other platforms.

    1st step is to fix (I mean really fix) the 2.2/2.5 Distributor decoder. Then there's the issue of reading the stock knock sensor (not impossible), sending the stock tach output (also not impossible, but will require some custom code). The more I look at it, the more I don't like their code. And, it's not open source and not well documented (not as well as the hardware, anyway). So adding features and 'fixing' certain things is difficult.

    The advantage is that you get a controller that's actually available. The main reason I started looking at MS is that it's getting harder and harder to find cores at the same old prices. I don't know if that's because their drying up, or the stock electronics are now more desirable (due to the tuning options available) than they used to be. Either way, the stock stuff is likely to get more expensive in the near future. Which means that MS becomes more attractive from a price/feature standpoint.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't think that's a valid comparison (and not just because I do custom cals myself) - the comparison should be between the DIY aspects of tuning stock electronics vs. tuning MS yourself.

    I'm sure if you paid a guy 1000miles away to write you a cal for your car running MS, the results would be no better than what you can expect from one of our cal vendors using stock electronics.
    Taking tuning into your own hands isn't for everyone, that's a given.

    For getting a custom calibration to simply run my car took 2 tries and the second one had so many issues directly related to the cal, I abandoned the idea and went back to caveman tuning for the smec. Each try took over a week to get a new chip shipped and tested, so it became far too time consuming and costly. I know I could get a chip burner and learn to use the software you guys use. Or I could put the same amount of money into a laptop to run MS

    On the other hand, tuning the MS neon a friend and I built and I owned for some time, the tuning took 2 days to get it good and about 2 weeks to get it as perfect as can be expected considering my goals. Off and on, I spent a little more time (hours) to get the fuel economy up to where I wanted it.

    I can search and find a few issues with custom cals, where reverting back to stock fixes the problem. Not so much with MS

  9. #29
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Brent- have you tried anything beyond MSII? keep in mind that MSII is obsolete at this point, its no longer being actively developed. Your complaint about MS doing nothing with the vehicle speed sensor would have been valid before MSIII came out. Launch control, traction control, flat shift, variable launch, 2 step, 3 step, transbrake control, timed retard after launch, and speed based launch control ( which is what you were trying to get launch control to do, it wasn't designed to work like you wanted it to) are all fully functional options now

    95% of the problems people have with MS are due to poor installation. sloppy wiring, poor connections, badly planned wiring etc. I don't care how good anyone's system is, if you do a hack job of installing it its going to have problems. firmware updates are a regular thing, they are constantly adding new features and fixing minor bugs here and there. when theres a problem with a new firmware release they are usually pretty quick about fixing that, they release them as a beta for testing so users can report any problems with the firmware,, those issues get corrected then its finally released as a "stable alpha" release. if you want a fully polished product with no bugs or kinks to work out then you can expect to spend around 3-4 grand for it.

    for knock control you can add the knock control module, and read the stock knock sensor just fine. since it has 2 knock inputs you can read the stock knock sensor and you could add a broadband knock sensor and really fine tune it beyond what the factory setup is capable of.

    I guess I could make a couple of jigs sometime over the next week, Una wanted one so he could try the 36-1 on his car as well.

  10. #30
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor Ondonti's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by BoostedDrummer View Post
    I thought Megasquirts launch control was activated by a switch? Maybe you're forgetting to turn it off? I've heard it can also be used as a valet mode lol
    Launch control and Flat shift are activated by the same signal (from the clutch switch).

    Flat shift gets activated by being above the setpoint RPM and depressing the clutch. Launch control is set by pushing the clutch and not being above the flat shift RPM. Launch control then goes to the launch control RPM.

    You can't have a launch control RPM higher than your flat shift rpm.
    You also can't rev match shifts when your launch control rpm is set lower then your desired RPM to make a shift.

    Two totally broken features that nobody will ever fix, its been like this since before you were a member on T-M but fixing it just requires using the speed sensor input that already exists. OEM stuff with this problem would have been fixed by someone.


    As long as you can get a clean signal from a timing indicator that Megasquirt supports, tuning is easy. The most important thing with shaddier timing setups is ensuring that you can command low enough timing to protect your engine. That is something I had trouble with using the stock 3.0 distributor.
    There are interesting options out there like swapping out distributor discs with one that MS understands (36-1) etc. There is a DIY disc made for Nissans that would pop into my distributor and give me sequential support since the 3.0 has a 2 channel distributor. Too stubborn to go there. 36-1 wheels and one other signal (camshaft) will give you full sequential.
    So if you want to make power on the dyno, its easy.
    Racing? Well, see above problems with rev matching (something you would do in road racing). You would have to disable launch control. It works okay in a drag car that only shifts one direction, but take that drag car on the street and be ready to be annoyed on a downshift.

    Megasquirt is 15 years behind in using some basic functions that racers demand. Seems like the simplest line of code to write. If MPH does not equal some low number, disable launch control and enable flat shift. Good traction control would be complicated but it would blow up the megasquirt market and kill off some aftermarket companies. Boost per gear control has been on Hondata forever. They really need boost per gear combined with boost per RPM AND traction control. I would be really interested to see a FWD car running with expensive traction control and a torsion diff on a road course. Did I mention the knock control support has been sketchy since its inception and I don't know that I trust the new stuff. If you want support, well there will be zero helpful threads on the MS forums and you will probably be too lost to get an answer from people who respond since most of them are people who seem to enjoy playing with the programming (open source) more than driving a car.

    I would rather run MS than OEM but its not rosey. Una (banned here ) has done most of the development with 2.2/2.5 and has shared the most actual information. Beyond whatever he has done you will find no support without begging the more secretive people here. There is a better 3.0 writeup on this site than 2.2/2.5 and more support.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 01-11-2015 at 07:41 AM.
    Brent
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  11. #31
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor Ondonti's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by crusty shadow View Post
    Brent- have you tried anything beyond MSII? keep in mind that MSII is obsolete at this point, its no longer being actively developed. Your complaint about MS doing nothing with the vehicle speed sensor would have been valid before MSIII came out. Launch control, traction control, flat shift, variable launch, 2 step, 3 step, transbrake control, timed retard after launch, and speed based launch control ( which is what you were trying to get launch control to do, it wasn't designed to work like you wanted it to) are all fully functional options now

    95% of the problems people have with MS are due to poor installation. sloppy wiring, poor connections, badly planned wiring etc. I don't care how good anyone's system is, if you do a hack job of installing it its going to have problems. firmware updates are a regular thing, they are constantly adding new features and fixing minor bugs here and there. when theres a problem with a new firmware release they are usually pretty quick about fixing that, they release them as a beta for testing so users can report any problems with the firmware,, those issues get corrected then its finally released as a "stable alpha" release. if you want a fully polished product with no bugs or kinks to work out then you can expect to spend around 3-4 grand for it.

    for knock control you can add the knock control module, and read the stock knock sensor just fine. since it has 2 knock inputs you can read the stock knock sensor and you could add a broadband knock sensor and really fine tune it beyond what the factory setup is capable of.

    I guess I could make a couple of jigs sometime over the next week, Una wanted one so he could try the 36-1 on his car as well.
    So it looks like in December they released a new manual. Yippee. Waited forever.

    I made enough complaints on facebook and their forums maybe.
    I know these functions could have existed, the manuals just stated "someday maybe we will use these functions"
    Its also against their track record to actually finish anything. MS1 and MS2 never got finished and I figured MS3 would die but with the release of MSPro with the same architecture and only one tuning software choice, they are kinda stuck helping both.

    I have watched MS3 because of my friend with an MS3 6262 powered 3.0 and going through his datalogs and tune.

    The new manual for tuning looks like nothier they have evern had released. Professional.
    Should have been the first response to this thread.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 01-11-2015 at 08:04 AM.
    Brent
    GREAT DEPRESSION RACING
    1992 Duster 3.0 The Junkyard- Now - Megasquirt II/Extra. OEM 10:1 3.0 + funny business
    - Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 Stock 3.0 Junk Motor - 516whp 519wtq 20psi 91 oct built 3.0 stock n/a computer
    1994 Spirit 3.0 - 12.3@113 15 psi - Daily Holset He341 280whp 304ft/lb @10psi
    1994 Spirit 3.0 a670 - Wife's - Disassembled
    1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE
    1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE
    1994 Duster 3.0 A543
    1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TII non IC, T1 31TH
    1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver, 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts, 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag
    1998 Dodge 12v Cummins 47re 4x4 4dr longbed. No fuel plate. Mack plug, AFC & Spring mods. Boost elbow.

  12. #32
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Subscribed. Also what's so special about this pro efi compared to that of fast or haltech?

    i plan on putting a 2.4 in my charger rwd so I'm not gonna do stock electronics. But I would like to hear from those who are using other engine management systems
    Last edited by bgbmxer; 01-11-2015 at 11:11 AM.

  13. #33
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Exactly. Seems the money and effort should be directed elsewhere. What gains are to be had with megasquirt?
    Again, there is no doubt that people have had great success with tuning the OE stuff. But it does have it's limitations.

    This is very similar to the exhaust manifold vs header thread... all of them.
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  14. #34
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Again, there is no doubt that people have had great success with tuning the OE stuff. But it does have it's limitations.

    This is very similar to the exhaust manifold vs header thread... all of them.
    I think that's a perfect analogy Mike. But I don't think we'll be lucky enough for this to be like the original tube header argument thread. I may have joy snap a shot of me swinging an SBEC around bu the main harness connector above my head just in case though. You'll never take our stock electronics!!!!!!!

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    I think that's a perfect analogy Mike. But I don't think we'll be lucky enough for this to be like the original tube header argument thread. I may have joy snap a shot of me swinging an SBEC around bu the main harness connector above my head just in case though. You'll never take our stock electronics!!!!!!!
    I think that would be a fairly effective weapon. Perhaps not so much for inflicting damage, but for stopping a fleeing enemy.

    The combination of a logic module, power module and harness could make a good bolo.

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  16. #36
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Again, there is no doubt that people have had great success with tuning the OE stuff. But it does have it's limitations.

    This is very similar to the exhaust manifold vs header thread... all of them.
    And just like those threads there is a lack of hard data to justify the additional time and $$$.

    For instance, I'm planning a 450hp build, like lots of people. How do I justify MS? I see Shadow launching with a stick shift, stock electronics, an open diff, and getting low 10's and 550hp+. Do I need launch control? What do I end up getting out of the upgrade?

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    And just like those threads there is a lack of hard data to justify the additional time and $$$.

    For instance, I'm planning a 450hp build, like lots of people. How do I justify MS? I see Shadow launching with a stick shift, stock electronics, and an open diff. Do I need launch control? What do I end up getting out of the upgrade?
    How much additional time and money do you think megasquirt really is? So far I'm into my MS3X system for under a grand, and that's on the very high end for a MS. Much less expensive systems are available. Even less if you build the box yourself. Subtract from that the equipment you need to burn your own Chrysler cals, with all the available data logging MS offers and there is your difference in money.

    Then factor in the addition features of MS, such as a available self-tuning software and MANY external data logging channels....
    Mike Marra
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  18. #38
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor tryingbe's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    that the equipment you need to burn your own Chrysler cals,
    $175 moates ostrich.
    $10-$100 socketed LM/SMEC/SBEC

    Takes maybe 15-30 minutes to install once you have all the parts.

    I've seen AJ converting his minivan to megasquirit. It's a long draw-out process, parts wise, he spent at least $1200. Time? From installing, learning, tune, re-tune, troubleshoot, re-tune again, a few months.

    As far as I can see, the "self tuning" just change the a/f ratio to close to what you ask it to be. It really doesn't do the job as good as I thought it would.
    Last edited by tryingbe; 01-11-2015 at 01:13 PM.

  19. #39
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    How much additional time and money do you think megasquirt really is? So far I'm into my MS3X system for under a grand, and that's on the very high end for a MS. Much less expensive systems are available. Even less if you build the box yourself. Subtract from that the equipment you need to burn your own Chrysler cals, with all the available data logging MS offers and there is your difference in money.

    Then factor in the addition features of MS, such as a available self-tuning software and MANY external data logging channels....
    The equipment needed to burn cals and log data from the stock ecu is:

    Boost button flashable ECU $50
    Boost button SCI cable $40
    MPTUNE and MPSCAN = Free
    Install tasks to get to tune ready = desolder/solder chip, get MPSCAN running on laptop and talking to ECU

    MS II EMS System assembled = $445.
    Not sure how much the additional wiring and connectors cost. Not sure even how to find out how much the rest of the install would cost on our cars.
    Install tasks to get to tune-ready = wiring, connectors, configuring all sensor inputs to work properly, who knows what else

    You also need a laptop and some minor soldering/desoldering skills. I wont include those in the comparison because to install/use MS you will also need a laptop and PLENTY of soldering/desoldering/wiring skills.

    So already you have a difference in price that can pay for an F4 camshaft or forged pistons. And its not even clear what I get for the additional money and time.

    If you get something important for your money and time, I'm all for it. But Im not seeing what that is.

    As far as self tuning software, who knows how well that works. Unless there is a detailed analysis showing how that works, you cant trust it, and you still need to know how to tune the engine anyway, so whats the point? Besides the buzz word of "self tuning", what exactly is it doing? Are we supposed to believe that you just plug in Tunerstudio and now your car is perfectly tuned?

    The additional inputs on MS is an interesting advantage, I'll give you that. But not worth the trouble/$$$ IMO. Besides things are going to change in that regard anyway soon, MPSCAN will be able to log external inputs.

    If you want an awesome electronics project then MS is definitely the way to go, or if you just want MS. But if you are simply making a $$$/time budget for a certain power level, then so far I'm not seeing anything to justify it, aux inputs and "self tuning" or not enough.

  20. #40
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    For instance, I'm planning a 450hp build, like lots of people. How do I justify MS? I see Shadow launching with a stick shift, stock electronics, an open diff, and getting low 10's and 550hp+. Do I need launch control? What do I end up getting out of the upgrade?
    I think what your not taking in to consideration with this example is that Rob (shadow) is the launch control. He has even said himself it took years of seat time to perfect it. So I guess you would need him to drive your car to get the same results.

    But seriously I didn't think there is a one size fits all situation here. It's makes the hobby so much fun to see all the different set ups, and in the end it's up to the person footing the bill, if he or she thinks it's worth it or not.

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