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Thread: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

  1. #141
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaserDad View Post
    I am trying to decide if I should control my new 2.5L TII engine with a MegaSquirt 3, or a Pro-M Racing controller. I am leaning toward the Pro-M, even though it will end up costing around $4k, by the time I am done. The reason I prefer the Pro-M is that the MS doesn't seem to be having much success, with our engines, and the Pro-M seems like it will more easily adapt to any component changes. It also provides OBDII connection.

    My intent here is to not only stir up a hornet's nest, but get some good info flowing, as I have not been able to find much on MegaSquirt successes. It would be great if there was a Knowledge Base article on MegaSquirt, so that we wouldn't have to spend so much time trying to search for kernels of info.

    I know I'm super late to this thread, but I have useful inputs. I am another MegaSquirt success. I'm using MicroSquirt (cheaper/compact/less features of MS2) on my 2.2L. Here's what I know before I started:

    1. People have done MS on their 2.2/2.5
    2. Distributor/turbo HEP can't be used
    3. 36-1 wheel needed to be added.

    I looked thru crusty's thread, but I didn't follow a how-to. I use mostly the online MS manual for wiring and asked some questions and I used the online MS calculators to get my fuel and ignition tables.

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...of-megasquirt)

    The most difficult part for me was to figure out 36-1 wheel and crank sensor. (My friend waterjet a 36-1 wheel ring that fits the common block crank pulley then welded them together. Wiring was surprisingly easy, so are the additional sensors/modules.



    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe
    $175 moates ostrich.
    $10-$100 socketed LM/SMEC/SBEC

    Takes maybe 15-30 minutes to install once you have all the parts.

    I've seen AJ converting his minivan to megasquirit. It's a long draw-out process, parts wise, he spent at least $1200. Time? From installing, learning, tune, re-tune, troubleshoot, re-tune again, a few months.

    As far as I can see, the "self tuning" just change the a/f ratio to close to what you ask it to be. It really doesn't do the job as good as I thought it would.
    I was for stock electronics. It's cheap, it's there, and ready to be used. Then I maxed out ignition and not being able to run more than 22psi on E85. Once a while the tune changed itself (happened 4 times, tune goes 14% leaner all the sudden), and the final nail was turning on a/c means 12.5 air fuel ratio no matter how I tried to turned it out. No, it's not the MAP nor wideband as I have the same sensors and controller on MicroSquirt and they are perfectly fine. It was down to either wiring and the socketed LM, I put another sockeded LM in, same result. So, out with stock computers and out with the 30+ year old engine harness. In the process, I found out why my hazard light never work since I bought he car 10+ years ago. The wire was corroded inside the insulation! The car is a CA/AZ car too!


    Quote Originally Posted by turboshad View Post
    I'm not really familiar with how well the 2.2/2.5 trigger code worked but I agree with crusty that ditching the distributor is the way to go anyway. Adding a 36-1 wheel isn't really hard to do and provides a very stable, dependable and supported crank trigger.
    Agreed. Chrysler's no longer available 2.2/2.5 hall effect pickup sensor, often DOA aftermarket HEP sensor, its 30 year old wiring connector, distributor, plastic welded shutter wheel, single coil setup, push in pin lock, are all weak points in my opinion. I was happy to get rid of all of those parts.

    When I set base ignition timing with the factory computer and HEP, timing will jump from 10 to 12 to 14 to 12 and never steady. After the switch to MicroSquirt, timing is dead on at whatever number I set it every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by turboshad View Post
    To the OP, MS is a great system and will cover the needs of 90% of the people out there. When it comes to running and tuning an engine with many of the options like launch control, flat shift, N2O control, rev limits, boost control, WB feedback, customized O2 tables, table switching, adjusting the control of almost every sensor, data logging, auto-tuning, etc, etc, MS is very, very hard to beat from a price standpoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22
    How much additional time and money do you think megasquirt really is?
    $1500 or so in Micrcosquirt related parts/service, I have all the parts/service in a spreadsheet.
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...of-megasquirt)


    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Exactly. Seems the money and effort should be directed elsewhere. What gains are to be had with megasquirt?
    Quote Originally Posted by acannell
    And just like those threads there is a lack of hard data to justify the additional time and $$$.
    Good thing you bought up gain and hard data.

    With stock coil, distributor, 87 TII LM, stock knock sensor, MPtuner, Moates Ostrich and E85, I was limited to 22psi, any higher I have misfire at higher RPM, I think I had the plugs gapped at .023 at one point. I dyno tuned the car (adjust fuel and timing in MPtuner), at most my car made 290whp on E85.
    This is the ignition table table, converted to MS 12x12 form.


    With 420A coil, 36-1 wheel, MicroSquirt, BOSCH broadband knock sensor, lilknockmeter module, and E54. I currently only limited by the size of my injectors, I'm near 83% duty cycle near 7000rpm.
    This is my 2nd try of tuning the ignition table, after tuning by listing for knocks.


    I have no explanation of why the engine can run so much more timing without knocks.

    Yes, I will dyno soon once my fuel is not the limit anymore. I'm bumping into 83% duty cycle at 24psi and 7000rpm. I'd like to get that duty cycle down so I can run more boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame
    1st step is to fix (I mean really fix) the 2.2/2.5 Distributor decoder. Then there's the issue of reading the stock knock sensor (not impossible), sending the stock tach output (also not impossible, but will require some custom code).
    See above for my thought on distributor and HEP.

    I used a device call lilknockmeter for knock control for my Microsquirt, it also works for MS2. See my review of lilknockmeter here. I have not issue with tach out on my microsquirt, I wire it straight to my 87-89 Dodge/LeBaron digital dash and it works correctly since day one.
    MS3 can use an add on board.


    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22
    Then factor in the addition features of MS, such as a available self-tuning software and MANY external data logging channels
    The "self" tuning is actually not that great, it is very slow to react. I can tune faster if someone can drive for me. Logging is a huge plus. I can get so much data then analyze them.
    Quote Originally Posted by acannell
    Can you describe more exactly why you think wiring up MS for a batch fire 2.2/2.5 would be easy? Thats a critical task that many may see as time consuming or expensive. If it can be made clear why its not so, that would help people alot who are thinking of MS.
    I separated then engine harness from the body harness. Label the wires I wanted to keep, and remove the LM harness, PM harness, and the harness goigo to the body connector at the drier side firewall. Wiring up MS is quite easy actually once you get over the fear of wiring.

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell
    If you had to guess, what do you think the minimum kit of parts and cost would be for a functional megasquirt setup on a batch fire 3 bar 2.2/2.5 with standard impedance injectors? And the install time for an intermediate skill level person?
    My install cost is around $1500, if I have to do it over again, it probably be a hundred to hundreds dollar cheaper since I wouldn't order more stuff I don't need or order parts I couldn't use.

    Minimum cost, that would be different for anyone. I didn't "need" the TPS, MAP, CTS, & etc connectors but I bought new anyways just to be safe. I didn't "need" a flex sensor, but flex sensor is nice. There is a two channel ignntion igniter I can buy instead of the more expensive quadspark... etc. So, it really depends.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo
    Honestly, i think if someone can't diagnose and repair the factory setup, MS is pie in the sky. It's one of those "if you have to ask, you can't do it" scenarios. The stock stuff has a ton of capability that goes almost totally unutilized because there are so few people in the community willing to put the time in to see what they can get out of it. I count myself in this lazy category. It's really strange that compared to other 80s EFI systems we have HUGE capability and so few people doing anything with it. The way i see it we actually have a greater supply of cool functionality then we have demand for it.
    Agree. If the person knows nil about the car in stock form, MS would not be a good choice. But for someone that can't diagnose or repair a car, he really shouldn't be modifying anything. Just leave it STOCK.
    I also agree that the dodge's software is great for its time, some of the 80's hardware is not ageing well. Broken connectors, cracked wire insulation, corroded wires inside its insulation, pins not making good contact, dying PM, no longer available HEP, etc...



    Quote Originally Posted by acannell
    First of all, any realistic sensors installed on the engine will have time constants in tens or 100's of milliseconds. So there is no physical source of data that is changing any faster than that, except maybe for the crankshaft if you add a 36:1 wheel, but even then, a 36:1 wheel spinning at 8000rpm is outputting pulses every 200 us. Thats 100's of instructions at 1mhz and I think our processors actually operate quite a bit faster than that. What sensors would you be referring to as being reacted to much faster than the factory? Boost pressure? O2? Boost pressure has a time constant of hundreds of milliseconds. O2 is almost certainly being ignored at WOT anyways, but even if your cal is looking at it its time constant is also milliseconds.
    Loop time!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    LM loop time, 22ms
    SMEC loop time, 11ms

    http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_pfi.html

    MS1 loop time, ~.66ms
    MS2 loop time, ~.33ms

    http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mfuel.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti
    Megasquirt is 15 years behind in using some basic functions that racers demand. Seems like the simplest line of code to write. If MPH does not equal some low number, disable launch control and enable flat shift. Good traction control would be complicated but it would blow up the megasquirt market and kill off some aftermarket companies. Boost per gear control has been on Hondata forever. They really need boost per gear combined with boost per RPM AND traction control. I would be really interested to see a FWD car running with expensive traction control and a torsion diff on a road course. Did I mention the knock control support has been sketchy since its inception and I don't know that I trust the new stuff. If you want support, well there will be zero helpful threads on the MS forums and you will probably be too lost to get an answer from people who respond since most of them are people who seem to enjoy playing with the programming (open source) more than driving a car.
    Agreed, you have very good points.

    In the last couple of months I discovered a bug in flex fuel sensor reading. All sensors have smoothed settings in MS, except for flex fuel, so flex fuel reading can swing wildly. If you have flex fuel auto correction on, you can easily damage your engine. No MS2 fix as of yet, most recent MS3 supposedly have it fixed, waiting for people to report back. How can this be overlooked so easily? I mean, smoothing for all other sensors are enabled!!

    I might have found another bug regarding to knock sensor, but report it and waiting for support is.... sigh....

    Given development for MS2 is dead and development for MS3 is slow. If you want MS, you would have to be content with what MS has to offer NOW and accept all its faults. Upgrade or changes can happen but it's a snail pace since MS development is not an open source and there are only three people actively working on it, on a volunteering bases.


    Would I do MS again knowing all its fault and cost???

    Absolutely. While MS has it's faults, it is still an huge improvement on stock, both software and hardware.
    Last edited by tryingbe; 10-26-2017 at 01:15 PM.

  2. #142
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    So how is everyone controlling the fan and charging systems and what of the stock harness are you using for ignition and other systems

  3. #143
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by bgbmxer View Post
    So how is everyone controlling the fan and charging systems and what of the stock harness are you using for ignition and other systems
    Megasquirt controls the fan. It might control the alternator. I read that it can't control the alternator so I went the external regulator route but after I started tuning I found a section in Tuner Studio that might control the alternator. MegaSquirt controls the ignition systems. The only part of the stock harness I used was to control body functions (headlights, horn, etc). Megasquirt controls all engine functions including lock-up torque converter and air conditioning. What other systems are you referring to that Megasquirt can control? You kind of need to be specific of what you're looking for.

  4. #144
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Megasquirt controls the fan. It might control the alternator. I read that it can't control the alternator so I went the external regulator route but after I started tuning I found a section in Tuner Studio that might control the alternator. MegaSquirt controls the ignition systems. The only part of the stock harness I used was to control body functions (headlights, horn, etc). Megasquirt controls all engine functions including lock-up torque converter and air conditioning. What other systems are you referring to that Megasquirt can control? You kind of need to be specific of what you're looking for.

    After reading tryingbe getting your feet wet post i feel I have a better understanding of how he took the harness and separated it and such. The rad fan i now know I'd send voltage from ms to trigger a relay and turn the fan on. And the alternator id wire an external regulator and be done with it . I tend to over think things when really if I would just break them into simple circuits in my head it's much easier. Taking the harness apart I see that i would have a good bit of ignition key on feeds and such extra. Kinda neat starting to really look into it.

  5. #145
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by bgbmxer View Post
    After reading tryingbe getting your feet wet post i feel I have a better understanding of how he took the harness and separated it and such. The rad fan i now know I'd send voltage from ms to trigger a relay and turn the fan on. And the alternator id wire an external regulator and be done with it . I tend to over think things when really if I would just break them into simple circuits in my head it's much easier. Taking the harness apart I see that i would have a good bit of ignition key on feeds and such extra. Kinda neat starting to really look into it.
    I agree with you. Once you break it down into little pieces, it's very easy.
    I ended up with two main harnesses. One for lights, accessories, ignition-switch controlled stuff. Another for engine management.

    I started out with a carbed Lbody harness and circuit-by-circuit removed everything I wasn't going to need.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  6. #146
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I agree with you. Once you break it down into little pieces, it's very easy.
    I ended up with two main harnesses. One for lights, accessories, ignition-switch controlled stuff. Another for engine management.

    I started out with a carbed Lbody harness and circuit-by-circuit removed everything I wasn't going to need.

    I started to convert my 86 sc to Smec the dash harness is 88 omni and I have 2 minivan harnesses from 89 for the engine. I'm assuming you made your injector harness from scratch then? I know some of the reason we are all doing this is to eliminate a lot of wiring and redo most of what we don't use. But I think A lot of the injector harness could be reused right? Are you folks reusing relays or putting in new ones and what for fuse block setups are being made also

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by bgbmxer View Post
    I started to convert my 86 sc to Smec the dash harness is 88 omni and I have 2 minivan harnesses from 89 for the engine. I'm assuming you made your injector harness from scratch then? I know some of the reason we are all doing this is to eliminate a lot of wiring and redo most of what we don't use. But I think A lot of the injector harness could be reused right? Are you folks reusing relays or putting in new ones and what for fuse block setups are being made also
    I didn't feel like I was wasting any time or money by making a brand new injector harness, with all new fresh wire and brand new, modern connectors. Any money spent here on connectors here can easily be recouped by selling your Chrysler injector harness which seem to be in demand.
    Mike Marra
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  8. #148
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by bgbmxer View Post
    But I think A lot of the injector harness could be reused right?
    I junked mine, ALL of it. NONE of the parts should be saved. Not the 30 year old hard as rock wires with cracked insulation, not the stupid injector connector that has the stupid clip that I can never get off, not the injector ground, not the L plug. NONE of it.


    Buy these, you'll be soooo happy you did.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/x4-Fuel-Inj...tZUCow&vxp=mtr

    One 12v pos wire comes out of my MS fuse block, it goes to an volvo injector resistor pack, 4 wires comes out of resister pack, each go to a injector thru the new injector connector
    From the injector connectors, injector 1 and 4 are spiced together to got to number one injector ground at MS. Injector 2 and 3 are spiced together ang does to number 2 injector ground at MS.

    Injector wiring is now completed. Super easy.

  9. #149
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by bgbmxer View Post
    I started to convert my 86 sc to Smec the dash harness is 88 omni and I have 2 minivan harnesses from 89 for the engine. I'm assuming you made your injector harness from scratch then? I know some of the reason we are all doing this is to eliminate a lot of wiring and redo most of what we don't use. But I think A lot of the injector harness could be reused right? Are you folks reusing relays or putting in new ones and what for fuse block setups are being made also
    Why reuse anything that's 30ish years old if you don't have to? Buy the injector plugs and build a new one.

    I got an under hood relay/fuse box from a '95 Caravan and wired that in.

  10. #150
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post

    One 12v pos wire comes out of my MS fuse block, it goes to an volvo injector resistor pack, 4 wires comes out of resister pack, each go to a injector thru the new injector connector
    From the injector connectors, injector 1 and 4 are spiced together to got to number one injector ground at MS. Injector 2 and 3 are spiced together ang does to number 2 injector ground at MS.

    Injector wiring is now completed. Super easy.
    You can simplify even further by running high-Z injectors. No resistors required.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    You can simplify even further by running high-Z injectors. No resistors required.
    Also resistors are not the best way to run low impedance/peak and hold injectors. I bought and built a peak and hold driver for my van.

  12. #152
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    You can simplify even further by running high-Z injectors. No resistors required.
    $30 for resistor or $300 for injectors.

  13. #153
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    $30 for resistor or $300 for injectors.
    Low Z injectors are free?
    Mike Marra
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  14. #154
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Low Z injectors are free?
    If by free you mean, "already bought years ago to use with LM/SMEC/SBEC". Sure, my low-z injectors are free.

  15. #155
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    If by free you mean, "already bought years ago to use with LM/SMEC/SBEC". Sure, my low-z injectors are free.
    Understood. Just pointing out, if you have to buy injectors.... I'd be just as hesitant to be relying on old injectors as old wiring.
    Mike Marra
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  16. #156
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Fwiw, the Jeep sbec is crank spark control, sfi, and has a 4-4-4 crank on six cylinders and I think 4-4 on the 4 cyl. Might be drop in electrically, except code is different. Cam sensor is used to determine which injector fires.

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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by crusty shadow View Post
    BoostedDrummer- you wont be able to run COP ignition with MSII, sequential injection is possible but it requires modification to the MSII daughter card- very easy to ruin the card doing that if you're not very careful when adding jumpers.

    If you haven't begin assembling it I recommend returning the MSII and getting MSIII with the MS3X expansion card. That setup has 8 individual ignition outputs and 8 fuel injector outputs already on it.
    how I got it to work- 36-1 crank trigger that you see in the pics, I made a new shutter wheel for the distributor, a half-moon style. if you don't want to mess with making a new shutter wheel you can use an 84-85 turbo distributor as it has a half moon style shutter wheel. The LSx coils have an igniter circuit built in so there is no need to add high current coil drivers to the MS- just connect the coils directly to the ignition outputs. I have a write up for the crank trigger install on the other forum but did not do a write up on the shutter wheel modification. it was just a simple matter of cutting the teeth off the original wheel, making a new one out of a piece of 2 1/4" exhaust pipe and welding it to the base of the original shutter wheel. I did that over using the 84-85 distributor because 1- I already had a couple N/A distributors laying around, 2- the early style distributor is about 1 1/2"- 2" taller and would have been in the way of where I wanted to mount my coils.

    oh, almost forgot- launch control/antilag/boost control is built in with the MSIII/MS3X setup, just connect it to the boost control solenoid and let it rip.
    crusty I joined this form after reading this thread. You seem to have a lot of knowledge on mega squirting our engines. Could you possibly share your write up you mentioned? I’m new to the whole idea of stand alone engine management systems. But I’m mid build and the machine shop is installing the 36 - 1 ring as I know ms3 is what I should go with

  18. #158
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    The write up i did was basically how to mount a 36-1 trigger wheel to the crank pulley- looks almost identical to the pic tryingbe posted at the top of this page.
    most of the rest of it is standard install for the MS. i used a J&B Performance peak and hold injector driver board- automatically controls the current so you can run either low z or high z injectors without having to mess with pulse width modulation.
    replace ALL the sensors. use temp sensors from DIYautotune- they are a perfect match for the MS and will screw right in to replace the original temp sensors.
    the modified distributor shutter wheel is pretty easy to do- half moon shaped piece of exhaust pipe (2 1/8 diameter) welded to the shutter wheel base after cutting off the orignal shutter wheel vanes. if you are not going to run full sequential injection and coil per plug ignition then you dont need a distributor sensor at all, its just there to plug the hole in the block at this point.

    one thing that made it EXTREMELY easy to get the car started and made initial tuning much easier was to do the injector dead time measurements. the "dead time" is the period of time from when the injector is energized to when it actually begins to move, and can have a very noticable effect on fueling. my first MS vehicle ran MS2 and i had to really fight with it to get the car to initially fire up and run. took 2-3 days of messing with fuel and cranking fuel settings before i got the engine to fire. With the MS3 i did i had none of those problems- car fired up ran and idled on the first hit of the key- massive difference.
    use guidism's timing table to start- look for his posts on the other forum, he has a link to his own personal website where he has his ignition timing table
    the 4 wire Idle air control motor works perfectly once you get all the settings correct.

    last but not least- do NOT screw around with trying to re--use wiring or connectors. buy all new connectors and buy the wiring bundle from DIYautotune. the last thing you want to do is be fighting wiring issues on 30+ year old wiring.

    i would post pics and such but i no longer own the car, sold it back in September.

  19. #159

    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by crusty shadow View Post
    one thing that made it EXTREMELY easy to get the car started and made initial tuning much easier was to do the injector dead time measurements. the "dead time" is the period of time from when the injector is energized to when it actually begins to move, and can have a very noticable effect on fueling.
    Where/how do you come up with the injector dead time measurements?

    In the past I have used a default value, but I was never sure it was correct...

  20. #160
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    Re: MegaSquirt Successes Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by c2xejk View Post
    Where/how do you come up with the injector dead time measurements?

    In the past I have used a default value, but I was never sure it was correct...
    You are generally provided that with a new injectors purchase. If not, the data needs to be searched out online.
    I had to get the info for my TFS-89095 injectors from another member who did get an information card with his injectors.
    Wayne H.

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    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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