MegaSquirt Successes Needed

[LaserDad]

I am trying to decide if I should control my new 2.5L TII engine with a MegaSquirt 3, or a Pro-M Racing controller. I am leaning toward the Pro-M, even though it will end up costing around $4k, by the time I am done. The reason I prefer the Pro-M is that the MS doesn't seem to be having much success, with our engines, and the Pro-M seems like it will more easily adapt to any component changes. It also provides OBDII connection.

My intent here is to not only stir up a hornet's nest, but get some good info flowing, as I have not been able to find much on MegaSquirt successes. It would be great if there was a Knowledge Base article on MegaSquirt, so that we wouldn't have to spend so much time trying to search for kernels of info.

[cordes]

Why not stock electronics? I'm very happy with my initial 2.5 TII atx turbonator LM cal.

ETA: For 4K you could fly someone out an have a darn good cal in no time IMO.

[LaserDad]

I want to eliminate the original wiring. I've worked on my '86 Laser for 10 years, and there's always something wiring related that I end up having to t'shoot. I am good at wiring and want a clean looking setup without old wiring issues. I recently bought Shellgame's SMEC for it, as it has an '88 Daytona 2.2L T2 engine and harness in it. The tune seems good, but the weather closed in before I could really test it.

This engine is for my '87 Daytona, which I am building a CB 2.5L T2 for. It will see a lot of track days, and hopefully put out 400+ hp. I want to be able to make modifications without needing to spend a lot of time getting the tune correct. One mistake and that $4k wouldn't look so expensive.

I really would like to use the money elsewhere, which is why I need to know if MS is a viable alternative.

[crusty shadow]

You wont find any Megasquirt info in the knowledge base here because a majority of the members on this forum have a belief that the stock electronics are the only way to go. They don't like it because its nota "plug and play" setup for our cars- you will have to rewire a lot of the engine compartment, most people will run away screaming with their hands flailing above their heads if they have to mess with rewiring anything.

That being said, there are several of us that have had very good success with Megasquirt on these engines- I am one of them. Megasquirt will be far more flexible and expandable than the Pro-M units, they are acutally easily configured to work with all of our stock sensors, or any other sensors you would want to replace them with. you will have to do the same amount of rewiring to use either system. support is second to none- there is a huge forum for MS users and the community there is all about helping others with problems and coming up with new features, additions to firmware etc.
The other major plus is if there is a failure of something with the MS you can open it up diagnose the problem and repair it yourself, everyone else you have to send it off and wait a month or 2.

sure you can buy cals for the stock computer. build an install a megasquirt and you will never have to pay for a cal again- its fully capable of tuning itself on the fly. Tunerstudio is far and above the best tuning software out there- better than motec, fast, aem, all the big names- and I know people who have used both for years ( my cousin is a motec sponsored SCCA racer and he likes tunerstudio better than motecs software).
MPtune is nowhere near as easy to use and understand as tunerstudio, even with an ostrich you will have about 1/4 of the tuning options in regards to acceleration enrichment, table switching, injection timing, table blending strategies, ad you will always be stuck running batch fire injection and single coil distributor ignition. there's just no comparison between the stock ecu and Megasquirt or any other aftermarket standalone engine management system- its like comparing an early 90's vintage 386 pc running windows 3.1 to a modern PC.

[cordes]

You wont find any Megasquirt info in the knowledge base here because a majority of the members on this forum have a belief that the stock electronics are the only way to go. They don't like it because its nota "plug and play" setup for our cars- you will have to rewire a lot of the engine compartment, most people will run away screaming with their hands flailing above their heads if they have to mess with rewiring anything.

snip.

I think this is the reason why most think stock electronics are the way to go.

[acannell]

I think this is the reason why most think stock electronics are the way to go.

Exactly. Seems the money and effort should be directed elsewhere. What gains are to be had with megasquirt?

[ShelGame]

Exactly. Seems the money and effort should be directed elsewhere. What gains are to be had with megasquirt?

I've been (just this week, actually) toying with the idea of supporting MS. I'm not sure yet what that will look like. But, I'm leaning toward making a MSPnP for the SMEC/SBEC much like DIY AutoTune does for many other platforms.

1st step is to fix (I mean really fix) the 2.2/2.5 Distributor decoder. Then there's the issue of reading the stock knock sensor (not impossible), sending the stock tach output (also not impossible, but will require some custom code). The more I look at it, the more I don't like their code. And, it's not open source and not well documented (not as well as the hardware, anyway). So adding features and 'fixing' certain things is difficult.

The advantage is that you get a controller that's actually available. The main reason I started looking at MS is that it's getting harder and harder to find cores at the same old prices. I don't know if that's because their drying up, or the stock electronics are now more desirable (due to the tuning options available) than they used to be. Either way, the stock stuff is likely to get more expensive in the near future. Which means that MS becomes more attractive from a price/feature standpoint.

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Another vote for going with a MS system. Have you SEEN the amount of problems people have with custom calibrations?

I don't think that's a valid comparison (and not just because I do custom cals myself) - the comparison should be between the DIY aspects of tuning stock electronics vs. tuning MS yourself.

I'm sure if you paid a guy 1000miles away to write you a cal for your car running MS, the results would be no better than what you can expect from one of our cal vendors using stock electronics.

[shadow88]

I've been (just this week, actually) toying with the idea of supporting MS. I'm not sure yet what that will look like. But, I'm leaning toward making a MSPnP for the SMEC/SBEC much like DIY AutoTune does for many other platforms.

1st step is to fix (I mean really fix) the 2.2/2.5 Distributor decoder. Then there's the issue of reading the stock knock sensor (not impossible), sending the stock tach output (also not impossible, but will require some custom code). The more I look at it, the more I don't like their code. And, it's not open source and not well documented (not as well as the hardware, anyway). So adding features and 'fixing' certain things is difficult.

The advantage is that you get a controller that's actually available. The main reason I started looking at MS is that it's getting harder and harder to find cores at the same old prices. I don't know if that's because their drying up, or the stock electronics are now more desirable (due to the tuning options available) than they used to be. Either way, the stock stuff is likely to get more expensive in the near future. Which means that MS becomes more attractive from a price/feature standpoint.

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I don't think that's a valid comparison (and not just because I do custom cals myself) - the comparison should be between the DIY aspects of tuning stock electronics vs. tuning MS yourself.

I'm sure if you paid a guy 1000miles away to write you a cal for your car running MS, the results would be no better than what you can expect from one of our cal vendors using stock electronics.

Taking tuning into your own hands isn't for everyone, that's a given.

For getting a custom calibration to simply run my car took 2 tries and the second one had so many issues directly related to the cal, I abandoned the idea and went back to caveman tuning for the smec. Each try took over a week to get a new chip shipped and tested, so it became far too time consuming and costly. I know I could get a chip burner and learn to use the software you guys use. Or I could put the same amount of money into a laptop to run MS

On the other hand, tuning the MS neon a friend and I built and I owned for some time, the tuning took 2 days to get it good and about 2 weeks to get it as perfect as can be expected considering my goals. Off and on, I spent a little more time (hours) to get the fuel economy up to where I wanted it.

I can search and find a few issues with custom cals, where reverting back to stock fixes the problem. Not so much with MS

[contraption22]

Exactly. Seems the money and effort should be directed elsewhere. What gains are to be had with megasquirt?

Again, there is no doubt that people have had great success with tuning the OE stuff. But it does have it's limitations.

This is very similar to the exhaust manifold vs header thread... all of them.

[cordes]

Again, there is no doubt that people have had great success with tuning the OE stuff. But it does have it's limitations.

This is very similar to the exhaust manifold vs header thread... all of them.

I think that's a perfect analogy Mike. But I don't think we'll be lucky enough for this to be like the original tube header argument thread. I may have joy snap a shot of me swinging an SBEC around bu the main harness connector above my head just in case though. You'll never take our stock electronics!!!!!!!

[acannell]

Again, there is no doubt that people have had great success with tuning the OE stuff. But it does have it's limitations.

This is very similar to the exhaust manifold vs header thread... all of them.

And just like those threads there is a lack of hard data to justify the additional time and $$$.

For instance, I'm planning a 450hp build, like lots of people. How do I justify MS? I see Shadow launching with a stick shift, stock electronics, an open diff, and getting low 10's and 550hp+. Do I need launch control? What do I end up getting out of the upgrade?

[contraption22]

Megasquirt
http://youtu.be/xDCK0zxxC_A

http://youtu.be/ppMUwgZHxeY

[cordes]

Megasquirt
http://youtu.be/xDCK0zxxC_A

http://youtu.be/ppMUwgZHxeY

Those are great examples of well done megasquirt cars. Yours will be a great example very shortly too. All involved are using 2.4s which have a ton of support for MS. IMO there's not enough in the advantage column for an 8v to justify the switch. Especially for $4K. Holy cow.

[turboshad]

TAll involved are using 2.4s which have a ton of support for MS.

What's the difference Brian? They are all internal combustion engines which is all the similarity you really need. I'm not really familiar with how well the 2.2/2.5 trigger code worked but I agree with crusty that ditching the distributor is the way to go anyway. Adding a 36-1 wheel isn't really hard to do and provides a very stable, dependable and supported crank trigger.

To the OP, MS is a great system and will cover the needs of 90% of the people out there. When it comes to running and tuning an engine with many of the options like launch control, flat shift, N2O control, rev limits, boost control, WB feedback, customized O2 tables, table switching, adjusting the control of almost every sensor, data logging, auto-tuning, etc, etc, MS is very, very hard to beat from a price standpoint.

I can easily think of a bunch of people successfully tuning their own cars on standalones (not just MS) vs. a handful of those pushing the limits with stock electronics, not to mention doing it real time and with the added features. I also think those who are advocates for stock electronics have never really buried themselves in a standalone like MS and saw how easy and versatile it really is, or they want to meet their goals and be able to say it was done on stock electronics which is of course a valid stance to take.

In the end each to their own, as long as they are enjoying their hobby.

[cordes]

What's the difference Brian? They are all internal combustion engines which is all the similarity you really need. I'm not really familiar with how well the 2.2/2.5 trigger code worked but I agree with crusty that ditching the distributor is the way to go anyway. Adding a 36-1 wheel isn't really hard to do and provides a very stable, dependable and supported crank trigger.

To the OP, MS is a great system and will cover the needs of 90% of the people out there. When it comes to running and tuning an engine with many of the options like launch control, flat shift, N2O control, rev limits, boost control, WB feedback, customized O2 tables, table switching, adjusting the control of almost every sensor, data logging, auto-tuning, etc, etc, MS is very, very hard to beat from a price standpoint.

I can easily think of a bunch of people successfully tuning their own cars on standalones (not just MS) vs. a handful of those pushing the limits with stock electronics, not to mention doing it real time and with the added features. I also think those who are advocates for stock electronics have never really buried themselves in a standalone like MS and saw how easy and versatile it really is, or they want to meet their goals and be able to say it was done on stock electronics which is of course a valid stance to take.

In the end each to their own, as long as they are enjoying their hobby.

There's not a real difference other than the fact that the 2.4 is much more difficult to get going with the stock stuff.

I don't dispute that aftermarket stuff from the 21st century is easily capable of out shining the factory stuff. However, I'm looking at the OP and wondering why anyone would go with aftermarket electronics just to do a 2.5 LM cal.

I recently put a 2.5 into my NYer with an auto trans. I used TLM and changed up the timing tables to match the later MP atx cals. With that one change an no other work the car runs and drives really well.

What are the goals for this car anyway? I could never justify 4K just to put a 2.5 in an LM car, but perhaps there is more at foot here?

[A.J.]

I bought MS3/MS3X assembled, 4 bar map daddy, knock module, two 6' wiring harness', P&H driver, the big weather pack kit, coolant temp sensor, and air charge temp sensor from DIY AutoTune and I spent about $1000. Just separating the body harness from the engine harness took me eight hours. Maybe another sixteen hours (or more) to wire up MS.

From what I read there are no performance gains to sequential injection over batch fire. The only gain is emissions and MPG. I went sequential because of the very small MPG gain and every little bit helps with my van. It was more complex for me because I'm running low z injectors so I had to buy (and assemble which is easier than I thought) the Peak and Hold driver. So it would be very easy for someone to put MS on their 2.2/2.5 and run batch fire and a single coil. The easiest way to put MS on a 2.2/2.5 would be to run batch fire, then mount a 2.0/2.4 double coil on the front of the valve cover and run spark plug wires down to the plugs. I've heard the 2.0/2.4 coil pack is good up to 600-700 horse power. There is a selection under "ignition settings" under "ignition options/wheel decoder" for Chrysler 2.2/2.5 so I would imagine that's to use the factory HEP in the distributor for spark and fuel.

As far as getting help, no two builds are alike. Even though I'm running MS3/MS3X on a 2.4 and using all stock sensors, when it comes to the TPS and IAC I'm using '89 stuff so someone running ALL SRT-4 stuff can't help me 100% because of what I'm running. I haven't tried very hard in getting help because I'm trying to figure stuff out on my own. Miraculously I haven't destroyed my engine because I'm blazing a new trail (personally) and have made a few mistakes. I would highly advise getting a pyrometer installed (after the turbo is fine) before you start tuning. Not for tuning itself, that's what your wideband is for, but to catch potential timing problems that a wideband won't pick up. For example, AFR can be perfect but if you don't have any timing advance because a certain box isn't checked that you didn't know to check and are only running 10* of timing, things are going to get hot and you're not going to know it.

The more I mess with it and the more I drive my van, the more I'm glad I made the switch. My engine compartment is cleaner without all the factory wiring and just the fact I have FRESH wiring sets my mind at ease. And to get rid of all those damn fusible links and get everything tidied up into on power distribution center is awesome.

There's not a real difference other than the fact that the 2.4 is much more difficult to get going with the stock stuff.

Say what now? The only problem I ran into was getting a base timing table to get the 2.4 to run so I could drive it on the street. It would be a breeze to get MS up and running on a 2.2/2.5 because you already have the timing tables you can get from MPTune or someone else can just take a snap shot of the table and you plug in the numbers.

[contraption22]

I did a lot of thinking about this. I did get really lucky with some custom calibrations for the SMEC. By lucky I mean that I had a friend that was able to create a calibration that worked for me. When it came time to decide what to do with a completely new engine combination, I had to weigh whether it makes sense to invest the time and money into being able to tune my own Smec, or aftermarket engine management. I really could have gone either way. Certainly the more expensive engine management systems were out of the budget.
The biggest downside to investing in tuning the OE electronics, is that once you invested in all the equipment and time, you'll be fully able to tune 30-year-old Chrysler's, and that's pretty much it. If you take that time and money and invested into any aftermarket engine management system, that knowledge is portable to any other engine platform. Theoretically once I have a good working knowledge of mega squirt, I'll be able to tune my own car or a friend's neon or another friend's mustang or somebody else's Miata or BMW.
I'm not sure what the stumbling block is with running mega squirt on a 2.2, but the only major difference I can see would be the ignition. And if that's the issue why not convert to distributorless ignition, with a crank trigger?

[crusty shadow]

I did a lot of thinking about this. I did to get really lucky with some custom calibrations for the SMEC. By lucky I mean that I had a friend that was able to create a calibration that worked for me. When it came time to decide what to do with a completely new engine combination, I had to weigh whether it makes sense to invest the time and money into being able to tune my own Smec, or aftermarket engine management. I really could have gone either way. Certainly the more expensive engine management systems were out of the budget.
The biggest downside to investing in tuning the OE electronics, is that once you invested in all the equipment and time, you'll be fully able to tune 30-year-old Chrysler's, and that's pretty much it. If you take that time and money and invested into any aftermarket engine management system, that knowledge is portable to any other engine platform. Theoretically once I have a good working knowledge of mega squirt, I'll be able to tune my own car or a friend's neon or another friend's mustang or somebody else's Miata or BMW.
I'm not sure what the stumbling block is with running mega squirt on a 2.2, but the only major difference I can see would be the ignition. And if that's the issue why not convert to distributorless ignition, with a crank trigger?

there is no stumbling block other than it doesn't plug in. I have no clue why some people have such a hard on for working with 25+ year old wiring that's crumbling and falling apart other than it plugs in.
being able to ditch the distributor ignition and go full sequential injection are among the reasons I went with Megasquirt on my car. I run GM LSx truck coils, one per cylinder. mounting a 36-1 wheel is not hard at all, just requires some planning, and I worked out how to mount it with virtually no runout, anyone with access to a mig welder can do it successfully.







you'll never be able to do anything like that with the factory computer.

also keep in mind the 36-1 wheel will provide FAR more accurate timing than the factory ecu. I measured a while back and there are spots in the engine cycle where the crank will rotate way too many degrees with no timing input from the hep sensor in the turbo distributor. it was a cheap hack of a design from Chrysler, no cal will fix that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-0pTCRX-hw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWBaAOyY5CY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQY5SVEGzRo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuxdXNWBIps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU5WD8U0_8Q

[crusty shadow]

another thing about datalogging- watch the vids of the land speed runs I posted, if you look at the datalog info , they are datalogging things like engine oil pressure, fuel pressure, crankcase pressure, EGT - even how much the front and rear suspension are moving. you can datalog anything if you can get a sensor to supply the data you want. you'd have to add a separate datalog setup to do that with the stock electronics.

[acannell]

another thing about datalogging- watch the vids of the land speed runs I posted, if you look at the datalog info , they are datalogging things like engine oil pressure, fuel pressure, crankcase pressure, EGT - even how much the front and rear suspension are moving. you can datalog anything if you can get a sensor to supply the data you want. you'd have to add a separate datalog setup to do that with the stock electronics.

This is a good point. I have also been frustrated by not be able to log multiple auxillary inputs into MPSCAN, but I've found a way to allow MPSCAN to do just that. This includes external thermocouples, AFR, whatever! Its just not put together into a product someone can buy yet, but it does work!

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1066592

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Another vote for going with a MS system. Have you SEEN the amount of problems people have with custom calibrations?

I would say that in that case, megasquirt is not the solution, its just a more difficult problem for those people to solve than getting the stock ecu to work.