Project - 86 Omni GLH Turbo

[5DIGITS]

I really like the draw through turbo while changing gears under boost

Very good build Ken!!

Thanks
Randy

Thanks and it's interesting you mention that.
That has changed considerably on this latest arrangement and was just noted just today while testing light to mid-throttle 'tip-ins' to boost, for transient fueling.
The turbo makes an identifiable tone along with the Turbo-I gurgle, as the turbo spools down, that decays if you don't tip back in.
It's nothing like an un-bypassed T-II and is new to the latest build.

[2.216VTurbo]

So while your *nostalgic* goals with an optimized set up with stock appering turbos and small intercooler is admirable Ken, keep in mind, not all of us live 1320 feet at a time. Your recipe kinda feels like a dig on us cheaters My track cars have seen and will see more track time with a minimum of 20 minutes of WOT, on the edge of lock up braking, as well as turning the steering wheel left and right. Smallish turbos, brakes, and intercoolers will never make fast lap times a reality. Bigger is better in a roadrace scenario Bro

[Shadow]

Although, efficiency can be measured and isn't a matter of opinion, including mine.

Unfortunately, in This reality anyways, Everything is a matter of opinion and subjective to say the very least.

Now before I go on, I want you to understand that I Know what Efficiency You are talking about, but opinion Will vary.

Not everyone will define efficiency as lower boost = better efficiency Period, and I would agree that just the statement alone can be a very dangerous "blinder" to a proper build according to ones expectations.

Again, I don't see You having any issue with this for your build because it is very Specific and purposeful, And it is to meet Your goals and expectations.

There have been other builds in our community that have taken the same approach to efficiency and gone to the extreme with less than stellar results. Although for ego sake, they will continue to Believe and make excuses for those results, stating that things are so much better now, but no proof?

I find that more sad than what you find frustrating. (If that makes any sense?)

All I'm saying is everyone will have their own idea of what the term "efficiency" means to them, and many will not drop it down to ONE single parameter as you have.

Although I do agree that it can be measured;

Some will measure it in economy (ie, the more MPG the more efficient)

Some will measure it in Effort and/or Expense vs performance gained

Some will measure it in the over-all package doing Everything they want it to do well, vs doing One thing well. (ie. a street car with Great street manners that also blisters down the 1/4 And can do well on the rally trail vs a pure drag car that would suck to drive on the street ect)

You say that you don't agree with the "bigger is better" approach, but you are running a To4e 50 trim turbo. Arguably the largest turbo the average individual in our community will choose to run for 350-500WHP. There are those who would argue that a slightly smaller turbo running a few more lbs boost would be more Efficient (ie. Better over-all powerband/ drivability)

Now, having said all of this, IF you reach the goal of mid 11's @ 120mph on 18psi boost or less, I for one would say that you have made a valid point and this would have to be look upon as a Great success!

IF you crack the 11's @ 115mph or less on no more than 18psi, there are those who would argue that you could have done better choosing your build more wisely. (effort and expense vs performance) But for the nostalgic aspect of the build, it could be argued that it is still a Very Cool and Neat little Beast

IF the build should fall Below the latter expectation, then I guess you would have to go back to the calculator and figure out what the difference in the "Real World" is vs the paper version..............


Just my .02$

[mopar-tech]

But for the nostalgic aspect of the build, it could be argued that it is still a Very Cool and Neat little Beast

It is indeed and a sterling example of maximizing what is there to its utmost rather than just applying one or two key parts and ignoring the rest.

[mopar-tech]

I could go longer on this subject but this really isn't my place to do so in someone else thread so just a quick note.

Lets just say I whole-heartily agree with Ken's quest for efficiency as a total package, unfortunately it isn't a practical exercise for one reason or another for a number of Turbo Dodge owners. In my business I can say that there was a several cars that I built where I had total control over the project (design-fabrication-assembly-calibration with dyno) and generally speaking they are still on the road with good reliability and excellent power. These cars can be difficult to modify without hands on by someone experienced with their nuances of operation and upkeep.

In such cases simpler packages (exhaust upgrades, 3-bar map, canned tune) might be a better path for that owner then another who is willing to make the time investment in the proper care and feeding of an advanced turbo dodge package.

If you get my meaning.

This isn't limited to the Turbo Dodge crowd, the dynamic is also in play with the RWD Mopar crowd as well but EFI and forced induction really introduce their own dynamics into the mix and complicates things as far as Turbo Dodge's go. 30+ year old vehicles with all the wear, tear and abuse that goes along with time wreaks havoc as well.

Just getting my CSX to a factory baseline has been maddening and I'm a factory trained tech!

[5DIGITS]

I could go longer on this subject but this really isn't my place to do so in someone else thread so just a quick note.

Lets just say I whole-heartily agree with Ken's quest for efficiency as a total package, unfortunately it isn't a practical exercise for one reason or another for a number of Turbo Dodge owners. In my business I can say that there was a several cars that I built where I had total control over the project (design-fabrication-assembly-calibration with dyno) and generally speaking they are still on the road with good reliability and excellent power. These cars can be difficult to modify without hands on by someone experienced with their nuances of operation and upkeep.

In such cases simpler packages (exhaust upgrades, 3-bar map, canned tune) might be a better path for that owner then another who is willing to make the time investment in the proper care and feeding of an advanced turbo dodge package.

If you get my meaning.

This isn't limited to the Turbo Dodge crowd, the dynamic is also in play with the RWD Mopar crowd as well but EFI and forced induction really introduce their own dynamics into the mix and complicates things as far as Turbo Dodge's go. 30+ year old vehicles with all the wear, tear and abuse that goes along with time wreaks havoc as well.

Just getting my CSX to a factory baseline has been maddening and I'm a factory trained tech!

Well said and thanks.

[5DIGITS]

Unfortunately, in This reality anyways, Everything is a matter of opinion and subjective to say the very least.

Now before I go on, I want you to understand that I Know what Efficiency You are talking about, but opinion Will vary.

Not everyone will define efficiency as lower boost = better efficiency Period, and I would agree that just the statement alone can be a very dangerous "blinder" to a proper build according to ones expectations.

Again, I don't see You having any issue with this for your build because it is very Specific and purposeful, And it is to meet Your goals and expectations.

There have been other builds in our community that have taken the same approach to efficiency and gone to the extreme with less than stellar results. Although for ego sake, they will continue to Believe and make excuses for those results, stating that things are so much better now, but no proof?

I find that more sad than what you find frustrating. (If that makes any sense?)

All I'm saying is everyone will have their own idea of what the term "efficiency" means to them, and many will not drop it down to ONE single parameter as you have.

Although I do agree that it can be measured;

Some will measure it in economy (ie, the more MPG the more efficient)

Some will measure it in Effort and/or Expense vs performance gained

Some will measure it in the over-all package doing Everything they want it to do well, vs doing One thing well. (ie. a street car with Great street manners that also blisters down the 1/4 And can do well on the rally trail vs a pure drag car that would suck to drive on the street ect)

You say that you don't agree with the "bigger is better" approach, but you are running a To4e 50 trim turbo. Arguably the largest turbo the average individual in our community will choose to run for 350-500WHP. There are those who would argue that a slightly smaller turbo running a few more lbs boost would be more Efficient (ie. Better over-all powerband/ drivability)

Now, having said all of this, IF you reach the goal of mid 11's @ 120mph on 18psi boost or less, I for one would say that you have made a valid point and this would have to be look upon as a Great success!

IF you crack the 11's @ 115mph or less on no more than 18psi, there are those who would argue that you could have done better choosing your build more wisely. (effort and expense vs performance) But for the nostalgic aspect of the build, it could be argued that it is still a Very Cool and Neat little Beast

IF the build should fall Below the latter expectation, then I guess you would have to go back to the calculator and figure out what the difference in the "Real World" is vs the paper version..............


Just my .02$

A neat little beast it is - thanks.

[5DIGITS]

So while your *nostalgic* goals with an optimized set up with stock appering turbos and small intercooler is admirable Ken, keep in mind, not all of us live 1320 feet at a time. Your recipe kinda feels like a dig on us cheaters My track cars have seen and will see more track time with a minimum of 20 minutes of WOT, on the edge of lock up braking, as well as turning the steering wheel left and right. Smallish turbos, brakes, and intercoolers will never make fast lap times a reality. Bigger is better in a roadrace scenario Bro

Absolutely Alan.
Not at any point do I desire to slight anyone.
My effort has always been to efficiently stretch as much out of as little as possible and make it work... although its not the most efficient "interheater" system, it packages as the DC system originally did.
I could package one of my own intakes and intercoolers, dial in the cal and realize greater gains and higher efficiency but that's a compromise I'm making at this point.
With this, I'm certainly not so naive to understand that this is a squirt of 1320 ft vs road course... for the change in environment anyone would need to adjust the hardware accordingly.
Regardless, this is a archaic T3/T4 hybrid system plunged into the hardware of yestertech - its fun while churning comparable numbers with hardware that most would consider "old news".

Enjoy and be safe !!

[contraption22]

There's a few variables that should be considered (i.e. octane, boost level, water injection, etc..) but I would not run tighter than .025", at a minimum.

Thank you.

[sdac guy]

A sad day ...

Ken is a little busy with home restoration, so I am posting the latest. This past week, the Omni suffered a major fire and is beyond repair.

It started as an electrical fire in the engine compartment and spread, disastrously so. The drive train may be salvageable, it remains to be seen.

His house has some smoke damage, while the attached garage has major damage (mostly smoke). The car was parked outside the garage but ended up against the garage door, which caught fire on the inside of the garage. Ken's 86 600 convertible which was parked in the garage also suffered major damage to the rear of the car. All the trim and plastic (including the tail lights) melted/burned).

Ken took me for a ride in the Omni about a week ago. It was very, very fast. Way faster than when I owned it. We were trying to get it out to the drag strip and it looked like this weekend was going to be it. I gave it about a 50/50 chance of being banned from the strip as it would be faster than an 11.5 which at this strip is the figure where a full cage is required. Ken was pretty sure it would crack 118 mph or so in the quarter.

Stay tuned, this project will only be paused while he finds another body to transfer the remaining "good" stuff to.


Barry

[rx2mazda]

that sucks! Glad everybody is ok, good luck with the rebuild Ken!

[Vigo]

Damn, that's terrible!! Here's hoping the insurance dealings go quick and easy and the new shell and repair parts are found quickly.

[tryingbe]

Sorry to hear, was looking forward to the results.

[2.216VTurbo]

Oh man, that blows, sorry Ken A member here crashed and totaled his roadrace 911 today while on a Porsche fun run. Got pinned between two semis tangling with eachother I hope the 'these things happen in threes' curse doesn't ring true.

[cordes]

That's terrible. Really sorry to hear it Ken. If you need any parts for the 600 post up and I'll see if I have anything left from any of mine.

[Shadow]

Really sorry to hear this, it just plain Sucks! Was really looking forward to your results.

[wheming]

Very sad news indeed. That was to be one very quick little Omni. Was looking forward to hearing the progress.
Thankfully no one was hurt.

[mopar-tech]

This past week, the Omni suffered a major fire and is beyond repair.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

I hate fire. Fire bad. One major reason I have a steel garage.

Cars can be replaced, thank God no one was injured and the home was not lost.

Gary

[Force Fed Mopar]

Sad news, but as said, at least no one was hurt and the house and garage still stand. Car is easy to replace physically, if not mentally

On another note, do we know how the electrical fire started? Had it just been driven, or was it just sitting in the driveway and randomly caught fire?

[sdac guy]

Sad news, but as said, at least no one was hurt and the house and garage still stand. Car is easy to replace physically, if not mentally

On another note, do we know how the electrical fire started? Had it just been driven, or was it just sitting in the driveway and randomly caught fire?

The car had an issue of the starter motor running all by itself, without the key even being in the ignition. This only happened a couple of times, and he had changed the starter, starter relay, and underhood wiring harness, troubleshooting the problem.

He had parked the car about 10 feet from the garage a few hours earlier. He was in his back yard on his deck at the time of the fire. The best he can determine, the starter engaged (he had left it in 1st gear), and even with the e-brake on, the starter pulled the car up against the garage door. Once there, and with the engine & starter no longer turning over, the wiring just overheated and caught fire.

The ASD was never energized during any of the earlier times this happened, so the engine never started, as the coil & fuel pump were not powered.


Barry