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Thread: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

  1. #41
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    getting the most out of what they have before upgrading. Most people don't do this and just start throwing parts at there cars without fully understanding where there "cork" might be. Pretty much upgrading the wrong parts.
    The oddball stuff is what I like to read about or help with. Shadow's setup is oddball because after many years he got faster and faster without changing certain things people normally change. His "vanilla" approach is interesting because of what he didn't do.
    I agree very much with those points.




    One thing i think Shadow has done a good job demonstrating (even if the forum has not done a good job learning from it) is that what is AFTER the turbine has a huge impact on what the parts in FRONT of the turbine are 'capable' of, and that the best way to improve the 'capability' of a stock log manifold is to upgrade the EXHAUST.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  2. #42
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Interesting to note that Mercedes FI engines have switched from tubular exhaust headers to log style exhaust manifolds.

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
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  3. #43
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Logs do have some advantages. Mainly packaging and heat retention.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

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  4. #44
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by bakes View Post
    dicks car loose a sec each lap and are Ic are over kill
    Definitely something not right. The Charger did this when I reached the limits of the twin stock I/C's I was running. Would loose a couple tenth and mph after first hot lap, and the one time I hot lapped it 3-4 times (someone oiled the track and they were using me in the test lane to "test" if it was good lol) by the third or 4th run it was 5-6mph down and about .5 ET.

    Switched to 3" I/C pipes and BMFIC and never a problem since.

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  5. #45
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    both cars running 3" ic piping the heat is soaking off the exhaust manifold just idling the motors for 10 mins and you will brand yourself on the intake we both had to resort to ice on the intake between runs . Dick and I thinking of trying a copper water filled heat shield to isolate the heat

  6. #46
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by bakes View Post
    both cars running 3" ic piping the heat is soaking off the exhaust manifold just idling the motors for 10 mins and you will brand yourself on the intake we both had to resort to ice on the intake between runs . Dick and I thinking of trying a copper water filled heat shield to isolate the heat

  7. #47
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    on a more serious note have you considered fiberfrax refractory material + a reflective stainless shield? thats what Ive been using between the BMF intake and the exhaust manifold and the exhaust manifold and the power steering pump. I think you would want jump up to 1/8 thick material and wrap your entire intake manifold. But it should drastically cut down on the power transfer from exhaust to intake. Its really cheap, to where you could just try it out and see if it works. Alot simpler than a water cooled jacket system.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIIUvRUh45E

    the stuff in the video is ALOT thicker than 1/8 of an inch, but that acetylene torch is 5400F+ protecting a piece of cardboard, so I think if you scale things to what you are dealing with it comes out still a winner

  8. #48
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    I like that idea i have to look into it

  9. #49
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    I think for most of us, a ported stocker is more than fine but if you're wanting it all, then a proper header is the way to go. My TIII with a header was a beast, it was a totally different motor, putting the stock manifold back on was like addding 10 boat anchors,

    Log header vs tube header-

    http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=925312

    8 valves tube header thread, long read but worth it

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ht=log+vs+tube

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ht=log+vs+tube

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHS60 View Post
    Interesting to note that Mercedes FI engines have switched from tubular exhaust headers to log style exhaust manifolds.
    Thanks
    Randy
    Is it because they are now turbocharged?
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  10. #50
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Mercedes was the only 2014 F1 engine to use log manifolds, all the others used tubular exhaust and all were turbocharged 1.6L V6's.
    I'm no F1 expert, just thought it was interesting.

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
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  11. #51
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHS60 View Post
    Interesting to note that Mercedes FI engines have switched from tubular exhaust headers to log style exhaust manifolds.

    Thanks
    Randy
    Quote Originally Posted by GLHS60 View Post
    Mercedes was the only 2014 F1 engine to use log manifolds, all the others used tubular exhaust and all were turbocharged 1.6L V6's.
    I'm no F1 expert, just thought it was interesting.

    Thanks
    Randy
    Yep, very interesting.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  12. #52
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Interesting to note Mercedes FI is switching back to tubular turbo exhaust manifold.

    Thanks
    Randy

    http://www.f1technical.net/development/461


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
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  13. #53
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Thanks for the link. I've very surprised that they ran a log at that level.

  14. #54
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...hp?f=4&t=21149
    This link gives a comparison to both the tube vs log manifold in F1 use. Super info to check out for us as well when contrasting both types of manifold(s). Buried in that article are some reasons why log manifolds don't really suck that bad and why they make good power.

  15. #55
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by puppet View Post
    http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...hp?f=4&t=21149
    This link gives a comparison to both the tube vs log manifold in F1 use. Super info to check out for us as well when contrasting both types of manifold(s). Buried in that article are some reasons why log manifolds don't really suck that bad and why they make good power.
    Excellent link!

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  16. #56
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    FYI- If you read the article it notes that Benz did end up going to a tubular header.

    I'd not take away a lot from F1 tech as you never know why some things were done and how important some parameters are. For instance they note that one reason Benz ran manifolds is it allowed them to run a much more narrow engine package which gave them advantages in another area.

    Interesting read for sure but without further info almost useless.

    Another FYI- While the "TBI header" some of us are running is ok, on the Reliant there was a notable pressure difference between the turbine inlet and number one exhaust runner I was tapped into. I came to the conclusion a tubular header was called for at least in my application.

    I did a number of instrumented passes and dyno pulls with the car in the final year before it was "retired" some of the readings were illuminating.

    Applying what was learned should be interesting.


    Working on clearing the decks.

  17. #57

    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoostedDrummer View Post
    I'll just leave this here.
    Beautiful work of Mr. Slowe
    I gotta start charging royalties for use of this photo. My only dog in this show is, I have driven my car with this header and turbo combo and at 10-11 psi, it is night and day to the 18 psi I was running with a T2 turbo and log setup. I know, I know, completely different compared to this 50 trim and tube header, but with less boost this car is SO much more responsive. Typical response from anyone who has ridden in my car is, "That's only 10 lbs?!"

    I would LOVE to get some sensors and monitors set up for the car, EGTs, pressure sensors before and after the IC, etc. But that's all I have to say. Not very informative and purely subjective with no previous data to compare. But the one thing I can say, Brian Slowe has proven himself with his car in a number of ways and I trust his design and work speaks for itself.
    [SIZE="3"] [B]Jon Trotter[/B][/SIZE] [B]1985[/B] Dodge Shelby Charger, Currently decommissioned [B]1987[/B] Shelby GLHS, #937 [B]1987[/B] Shelby Lancer, #628 [QUOTE=Reeves;587010]I can be ready. Please send pics of wife. _____DodgeZ add comments here______[/QUOTE]

  18. #58
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    It is definitely beautiful Jon. Anybody in their right mind knows that will make ultimate power. Reason I posted that article was to take a closer look as to why log mani's perform pretty well. There is a side by side graph showing how "stair stepped" the response is with the pulse type mani. Of note is how at lower rpm the log displayed similar characteristics. As the rpm's rose the log reverted to the pressure type function. Got me wondering if our stocker followed that principal ... that would explain a lot. Probably more of a packaging compromise than anything done on purpose in our cars but it isn't all that bad either. Like the title of this thread states, "ported stocker good for 550HP" ... not too shabby.

    Just looking at Brians work adds 50-60HP I like where it puts the turbo, too. The pulse mani will definitely open up the ability to run more aggressive cams ... = even more HP. Hope you'll share more as you work with the tuning. GL!

  19. #59

    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by puppet View Post
    It is definitely beautiful Jon. Anybody in their right mind knows that will make ultimate power. Reason I posted that article was to take a closer look as to why log mani's perform pretty well. There is a side by side graph showing how "stair stepped" the response is with the pulse type mani. Of note is how at lower rpm the log displayed similar characteristics. As the rpm's rose the log reverted to the pressure type function. Got me wondering if our stocker followed that principal ... that would explain a lot. Probably more of a packaging compromise than anything done on purpose in our cars but it isn't all that bad either. Like the title of this thread states, "ported stocker good for 550HP" ... not too shabby.

    Just looking at Brians work adds 50-60HP I like where it puts the turbo, too. The pulse mani will definitely open up the ability to run more aggressive cams ... = even more HP. Hope you'll share more as you work with the tuning. GL!
    With the number of times this picture is used, I've probably added close to 200hp to my car. My only pride in the header is that, I own it. Brian did such a great job with the work and fitment to get it in the car with no modifications to the chassis or firewall.

    And the thread is great! The information from everyone who has either had experience, first-hand fabrication or knowledge from an engineering perspective has been great to read. One of the few threads that I've actually read every response posted because there was so much to glean from and consider.
    [SIZE="3"] [B]Jon Trotter[/B][/SIZE] [B]1985[/B] Dodge Shelby Charger, Currently decommissioned [B]1987[/B] Shelby GLHS, #937 [B]1987[/B] Shelby Lancer, #628 [QUOTE=Reeves;587010]I can be ready. Please send pics of wife. _____DodgeZ add comments here______[/QUOTE]

  20. #60
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by minigts View Post
    I've actually read every response posted because there was so much to glean from and consider.
    5 Points for using the word "glean".
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