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Thread: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

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    Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Given Shadows tremendous success with a ported stock exhaust manifold, how are aftermarket headers justified at all for 99% of the TM world?

    I put quite a bit of effort into making a tubular, near-equal length header, which locates the turbo in the stock location and has a nice 4 to 1 collector, and its still installed on my car, but if Shadow is getting 550hp+ with a ported stocker then I really dont see the need for it at all unless I'm planning on 600hp+, and in that case Im not sure the header I made would be appropriate or not, or who knows maybe a ported stocker can still go up and up in power.

    So anyways...if a ported "Shadow" manifold were for sale, I would find it hard not to buy it. There are alot of nice things about the stock manifold including having a nice big empty space to put a huge swingvalve with a generous radius, unlike my header which hugs the stock swingvalve within a mm. Plus a ported stocker would certainly be a lot cheaper than even an inexpensive header made from scratch.

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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Well, in the 6g72 motor world, it was argued that the stock turbo intake manifold was a HP killer. Many replacements were designed and built. One shop decided to forget all that noise and put down 1000awhp on a stock intake manifold. Now, even though the manifold will do 1000awhp, even in 300hp setups, the intake manifold improved properly in tandem with other modifications makes significant gains. That 1000awhp motor required near 40psi of boost from twin gt3582's which should be capable of a lot more HP at that boost level. The intake manifold was certainly part of the bottleneck in the motor. That motor also had exhaust manifolds and turbine housings that added even more restrictions compared to the capacity of the turbos. Were the turbos too large for the setup? No, I think the large turbos helped bypass the poor flow of the rest of the setup at the cost of having a narrower powerband or forcing the motor to rev higher.

    The same can be said for an exhaust manifold. I still stick to Aaron at Heffner's project where a tubular manifold on a 2.2L performed well even when the runners were too big and the turbo was too small. Same with SMP's manifold results.

    I have never run a tubular manifold but I still know when properly done they would improve my performance. Build a 2" runner exhaust for a tiny turbo and you will be wishing for the stocker.

    In the turbododge world, most people live by the rule that spending should be directed at the biggest HP/$ ratio parts available. Upping the boost usually wins. Part of that choice is also how hard it will be to get things worked out, where increased time spent = money/wife/anxiety problems.
    But, I have seen members spend $7k on a paint job or huge amounts for tubular K frames and control arms for cars that may never drive on any road. Sometimes I like buying fancy stuff and ignoring the HP/$ math.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    I believe Shadow's setup to create the power and performance it does due to the precise tuning he does.
    Everything in his system is set up to run with that ported stocker.

    So yes, you CAN make great power with a ported stock mani,
    but why would you when there are great headers to be had that require no finessing?
    Understandably, the ported mani will be much less expensive, but will never out flow a header.

    Shadow's Charger, IMHO, is an anomaly.
    NON-CB and a ported stock exhaust mani.
    I'm not sure there's ever been another to do what he's done with these parts.

    Personally, and even though his pressure differential is surely 1:1,
    I'd LOVE to see what the improvements would be for him with a header installed,
    and tuning altered slightly to accept one.
    (And would like to see him add an alcohol injection system as well. lol)

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    The ability to make a particular power number with a stock manifold does not throw out the idea that a properly designed tubular header will open opportunities for more power.
    Last edited by contraption22; 01-06-2015 at 11:46 AM.
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    I can tell you that in the class I run (NHRA Stock) I'm trying to scrape out like 2hp at a time. Bigger turbo's aren't allowed; so I'm limited to what I can make with the Mitsu turbo. Every little bit helps.

    If a tubular head equalized the backpressure, and therefore the power made by each cylinder, then it would be worth it to me - even if it only added 2-3 hp total.

    In my case, I do want a smaller diameter header than most. Since I run the small Mitsu turbo, I want a smaller diameter header to maintain the velocity and heat. I realize that a header to meet my specs would pretty much be a one-off...
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    The ability to make a particular power number with a stock manifold does not throw out the idea that a properly designed tubular header will open opportunities for more power.
    ^^^^ This ^^^^

    Shadow has done amazing things with his car and the parts on it, but that does not mean that it wouldn't be faster with other parts on it.

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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by knownenemy View Post
    I believe Shadow's setup to create the power and performance it does due to the precise tuning he does.
    Everything in his system is set up to run with that ported stocker.

    So yes, you CAN make great power with a ported stock mani,
    but why would you when there are great headers to be had that require no finessing?
    Understandably, the ported mani will be much less expensive, but will never out flow a header.

    Shadow's Charger, IMHO, is an anomaly.
    NON-CB and a ported stock exhaust mani.
    I'm not sure there's ever been another to do what he's done with these parts.

    Personally, and even though his pressure differential is surely 1:1,
    I'd LOVE to see what the improvements would be for him with a header installed,
    and tuning altered slightly to accept one.
    (And would like to see him add an alcohol injection system as well. lol)
    If you subscribe to the logic that a 1:1 pressure ratio between exhaust backpressure and intake manifold pressure is ideal and anything above or below that is less ideal, then apparently Shadows setup is optimized since he's measuring 1:1 or very close to it.

    I'm not saying a tubular header does not make sense at some point, and even Shadow says hes planning on going to one eventually, but if hes getting 550hp+ using a ported stocker, then that covers 99% of TD/TM's, yes? Which is what Im talking about.

    As far as his build being specially tuned, IIRC hes using an off-the-shelf F4 cam, a lightly ported G-head with +1mm valves, a custom big swingvalve, a custom big intake, and I think an off-the-shelf HE351W turbo, although Im not sure what wheels in that.

    So to be very specific, I dont see where the custom tune part is in relation to the exhaust manifold per-se. The cam and intake would probably be the most important piece of that puzzle, and the cam is off-the-shelf and the intake is just "BIG".

    So in other words I dont see a part, specifically related to exhaust manifold flow, that is finely tuned or optimized for Shadows build in particular. Those items all appear to be optimized for any high power build.

    Where does the tuning happen for a different exhaust manifold, besides the cam?

    To be clear I'm not saying whatever cal he is using was not finely tuned, I'm saying that it wouldnt have much to do with exhaust manifold flow.

    Im asking all this because I'm seriously considering selling my tubular header and switching to a ported stocker so I can work more easily on a swingvalve design that would be relevant to most people, with a high power level ceiling that is still considered "very high".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    The ability to make a particular power number with a stock manifold does not throw out the idea that a properly designed tubular header will open opportunities for more power.
    Im not saying it would. Im saying for anyone seeking ~550hp it would be enough. Edit: and specifically, that more flow would not be needed at all, since hes operating at 1:1. So a higher flowing mani would only have a benefit if more major changes were made like change to the head, intake, swingvalve, etc...but thats beyond the scope of the vast majority of TD/TM'rs, 550hp is probably well into the 99% percentile as far as covering most people goals.

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    turbo addict Pat's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by knownenemy View Post

    Personally, and even though his pressure differential is surely 1:1,
    I'd LOVE to see what the improvements would be for him with a header installed,
    [/I]
    I'll also point out that when talking about pressure ratios, one thing to consider is where the pressure tap is located. If the pressure ratio is located in the collector, which I think is where Shadow's is located, you're really only measuring the pressure developed from the turbo and back. You're not measuring pressure created by the manifold or header. It's possible that if he switched to a header and was flowing that much more before the turbo, his drive pressure at the turbo itself might actually go up a bit.

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    If you subscribe to the logic that a 1:1 pressure ratio between exhaust backpressure and intake manifold pressure is ideal and anything above or below that is less ideal, then apparently Shadows setup is optimized since he's measuring 1:1 or very close to it.
    Well, that's not really a theory for making the most power possible so much as it is the benchmark on the way to getting the most power out of a particular hard parts combination. For example, what if didn't want to just make sure your turbo system was efficient as possible? What if you wanted to use a more efficient combination altogether? 40psi boost / 40psi turbine pressure is still 1:1, but so is 25/25.


    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Im not saying it would. Im saying for anyone seeking ~550hp it would be enough.
    What if you wanted to make that 550hp at 25psi instead of 35psi or 40psi?
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    I'll also point out that when talking about pressure ratios, one thing to consider is where the pressure tap is located. If the pressure ratio is located in the collector, which I think is where Shadow's is located, you're really only measuring the pressure developed from the turbo and back. You're not measuring pressure created by the manifold or header. It's possible that if he switched to a header and was flowing that much more before the turbo, his drive pressure at the turbo itself might actually go up a bit.
    Agreed. And yes he has said that the pressure was measured right at the flange to the turbo. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1065395

    Still, what Im saying is that 550hp is well beyond the goals of most TD/TM's, so up to that point, a HUGE amount of money and time can be saved by just using a stock ported mani.

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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Agreed. And yes he has said that the pressure was measured right at the flange to the turbo. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1065395

    Still, what Im saying is that 550hp is well beyond the goals of most TD/TM's, so up to that point, a HUGE amount of money and time can be saved by just using a stock ported mani.
    "What's the cheapest way to get a 550hp TM?" is a different discussion, I think.
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Well, that's not really a theory for making the most power possible so much as it is the benchmark on the way to getting the most power out of a particular hard parts combination. For example, what if didn't want to just make sure your turbo system was efficient as possible? What if you wanted to use a more efficient combination altogether?
    Shadows build is reliable, apparently. So seeking efficiencies starts to become academic. The power level is enormous and very high hp/psi. Why care about efficient combinations when one is running low 10's on cheap/simple/off the shelf parts?

    What if you wanted to make that 550hp at 25psi instead of 35psi or 40psi?
    Yes, "what if". Its a conceit to assume that you can jump from 16 hp/psi to an insane 22 hp/psi by swapping the exhaust manifold when the rest of the exhaust system is already very high flowing and you are seeing very good pressure levels a few inches from the head. More realistically, what if your power goal is 500hp? Then we do you care if its at one boost pressure or another? Unless you are allowing continuous build-creep and always moving the target futher out, then 550hp is probably well beyond what most people are trying to achieve period.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    "What's the cheapest way to get a 550hp TM?" is a different discussion, I think.
    Its actually what Im trying to get at here, which is why I asked "Given Shadows tremendous success with a ported stock exhaust manifold, how are aftermarket headers justified at all for 99% of the TM world?". And I think we can agree, 99% of the TM world is focused on the "cheapest way to" fill in the blank.

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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    If you want to make a power goal and don't care about efficiency, octane requirements or numbers on your pressure gauges than none of it really matters.
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    If you want to make a power goal and don't care about efficiency, octane requirements or numbers on your pressure gauges than none of it really matters.
    Im not trying to be contrary. But Shadows build is reliable, fast, and at a power level beyond what most people are shooting for. Things like efficiencies, octane, and pressure levels are not ends they are means to the end. So if the end is achieved, then what difference do they make?

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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    I've been telling people the same thing for a few years now, that the log headers that are being sold do not have any real flow improvements and are not going to make more power than they will on a ported stocker. I sold the one off my Lebaron and installed stocker that I ported myself. Bone stock head and stock T2 turbo on a 2.5, I've run 80mph in the 8th in a 3300# car on 20psi. It makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 230-240whp.

    The main advantage of the log headers that are available is they allow the mounting of larger turbos, like Holsets. From which people obviously gain performance.

    As has been mentioned multiple times before, if anyone really wants to know how much you can gain from a tubular header (properly designed) on a built engine, they need to make a prototype and give it to Shadow to test on his car. If he gains substantial power from it, I'm sure he would be willing to reimburse the builder for it, and they can start taking orders. If not, then argument settled.

    Finding out how much difference it makes on a stock vehicle, Shelgame's Daytona would be the perfect test bed for that, as he said. It is well documented how it runs now and he has definite rules he has to stick to that keep it that way, so seeing a difference in power would be clear.

    Yes there's a possibility that you will lose time and money if it doesn't work out. But that's always been the nature of the game we play. If it works out then the benefits will be good for everyone, both vendor and consumer.
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Im not trying to be contrary. But Shadows build is reliable, fast, and at a power level beyond what most people are shooting for. Things like efficiencies, octane, and pressure levels are not ends they are means to the end. So if the end is achieved, then what difference do they make?
    Just use nitrous then. Much easier. :-)

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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    More than 1 way to skin a cat. Look at warrens car compared to shadow's. They both make massive power. Warrens is all about pure efficiency. I would have absolutely no doubt that warrens car would make more power with the same turbo.

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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Nice to see you guys "thinking out loud" about this.

    Also, a lot of Good points being made.

    Plain and simple, the Charger with a proper tube header would make the same power on Less boost but most likely have a higher pressure ratio than it does right now. More like 29psi boost pressure : 40+psi drive pressure due to the header making the motor Breath more efficiently.

    Warren's car is a Good eg. of this. I would be willing to bet that his motor would run the HE351 out at 26-28psi making 600WHP or More!

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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    Just use nitrous then. Much easier. :-)
    Exactly.
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    Re: Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

    I put quite a bit of effort into making a tubular, near-equal length header, which locates the turbo in the stock location
    the problem with this was to much effort to keep turbo in the stock location, personally I hate where our turbos are located. move the turbo over where the TU log manifold is, throw a slight angle on the mounting flange to angle the compressor inlet more towards the front of the vehicle instead of towards the fender and you would be onto something... just my idea... and this wouldn't have to be a log header, just an example, this would allow more room for 4-1 or 4-2-1 header, and more room for downpipe to p/s pump clearance...

    Yes, "what if". Its a conceit to assume that you can jump from 16 hp/psi to an insane 22 hp/psi by swapping the exhaust manifold when the rest of the exhaust system is already very high flowing
    maybe not "just" from a header, but that would be a piece of the puzzle, coupled with your intake, a properly ported head, and correct cam, this would be a reality...

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