Ported stock mani good for 550hp+, so whats the point of headers?

[The Pope]

When you look at guys building $5,000 headers for expensive V8 builds the people selling those headers tell you the same thing, how much you spend = how long they last. Tube headers just don't last long on a street car, braced, ceramic coated, stainless material and tig welded. Solid engine mounts and busted in 5,000 miles.

So you compare a tube header to what your goal is, anything but an off road trailered drag car. Then you don't want a header, among other mods that don't work right without the header.

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999% of turbo Dodge people need the right size turbo and other parts to reach their goals. Even most "racers" go 16v with their off road race cars with headers before making it to where a 8v log manifold street/strip car is capable of running.

After porting and ceramic coating (fully including the inside) I still crack and warp cast manifolds in time, but that "time" is at least 100 times longer.

Clearly 10s and slower, even a race car doesn't need tube headers. You have "other" problems and headers on a driver create more problems..... The SMP 8v ran 8s over 15 years ago now? He needed a header....

[GLHS60]

Haven't heard from you in a while Rob, but your name came up recently, hope all is well .

Are you still running pure antifreeze in your engines??

Thanks
Randy

[The Pope]

Haven't heard from you in a while Rob, but your name came up recently, hope all is well .

Are you still running pure antifreeze in your engines??

Thanks
Randy

Well pure isn't really 100% with most. But yeah I run pure the I have to top off a couple times as the water burns out. Then all bubbles and burping leaves. Not a popular plan but with boiling issues liquid cools better than vapor.

[GLHS60]

Well pure isn't really 100% with most. But yeah I run pure the I have to top off a couple times as the water burns out. Then all bubbles and burping leaves. Not a popular plan but with boiling issues liquid cools better than vapor.

I appreciate the up date, your earlier post on straight A/F made some sense to me and I'm going to try it although the masses say not to!!.

Thanks
Randy

[The Pope]

I appreciate the up date, your earlier post on straight A/F made some sense to me and I'm going to try it although the masses say not to!!.

Thanks
Randy

Glycol doesn't transfer heat well and it freezes at 10 degrees. So normally not many want to run it straight. However with a turbo and exhaust temps way up there your boiling point being way higher you are still pumping fluid, not air / vapor. Where as water does transfer heat better than Glycol, water vapor doesn't. When running 7 PSI for an hour on the highway the car would push out the coolant with water and get hot. Glycol doesn't push out as it takes a lot more to boil it. But in my work truck I run half and half, and most cars. Not 2.2 turbos with raised boost, the GLHS with the small radiator gets straight..... When thinking boiling consider that if you run a water cooled turbo that turns red with heat.

[contraption22]

Glycol doesn't transfer heat well and it freezes at 10 degrees. So normally not many want to run it straight. However with a turbo and exhaust temps way up there your boiling point being way higher you are still pumping fluid, not air / vapor. Where as water does transfer heat better than Glycol, water vapor doesn't. When running 7 PSI for an hour on the highway the car would push out the coolant with water and get hot. Glycol doesn't push out as it takes a lot more to boil it. But in my work truck I run half and half, and most cars. Not 2.2 turbos with raised boost, the GLHS with the small radiator gets straight..... When thinking boiling consider that if you run a water cooled turbo that turns red with heat.

So why not just run a higher pressure cap?

Edit, scratch that.

Why not try to ensure that your cooling system is sufficient to keep your coolant from boiling instead of raising the boiling point?
The logic of raising the boiling point of coolant had always perplexed me as a solution to an over-heating issue. Like the people that run Evan's coolant on the basis that it has a high boiling point. That is merely band-aiding a symptom of a problem, and not a good solution. If anything, you're actually increasing the tendency to overheat by using a less efficient coolant mix, in order to fix one of the symptoms.

Sure it's nice to have a higher boiling point in case of extreme conditions, but that doesn't change the fact that your coolant temp would have to be outside the safe parameters to get to the boiling point of 50/50.

That's like going to sleep with fireproof pajamas to make it safer to smoke in bed.

[zin]

I can see the advantage being that, regardless of the conditions that produce steam pockets, eliminating those steam pockets will reduce the tendency to detonate...

I do agree, water is still the best "heat sink" for cooling, and a higher pressure cap would be nice, but the rest of the system might become a liability, having not been designed for the higher pressure.

Mike

[contraption22]

I can see the advantage being that, regardless of the conditions that produce steam pockets, eliminating those steam pockets will reduce the tendency to detonate...

I do agree, water is still the best "heat sink" for cooling, and a higher pressure cap would be nice, but the rest of the system might become a liability, having not been designed for the higher pressure.

Mike

Agreed, but seems like the best solution would be have a cooling system capable of maintaining a lower temperature.

[wheming]

I think i may be running into that situation. On the testing with Mini i have done so far, when higher boost levels have been applied i notice some coolant was getting pushed into the reservoir. I tried a new cap, and hose clamps on the overflow tube, thinking maybe it wasn't being drawn back in.
It still occurred. I have replaced the radiator but have not been back out to race.
This discussion of localized boiling occuring most likely in the turbo interested me as an explanation of my observations.
If there is an area of massive heat, such as the turbo when in high boost and glowing, i wonder how the cooling system is made capable of handling it?
I might try running a bit heavier mix of antifreeze, but can't see me going to straight antifreeze. I have a 16psi cap i believe. That was what was called for factory stock.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

it's the turbine houseing and swing valve houseing that glow red

the water jackets are in the center section

it has to get hot for sure but I can't say I've ever seen the center turn red like the other two housings after a hard pull up the hill in front of my house

I'd think too that the exhaust flow into the down pipe has to wick away some of the heat energy with the exhaust flow


- with the water feed line to the turbo coming outta the back of the block it wouldn't be too hard to add another cooler like a trans cooler with a fan on it

[wheming]

Yes, i would think most of the heat just gets pushed right down and out the exhaust. But since the turbine is where the work and restriction is happening it does get to a point to glow. But, that means the turbine itself is also most likely glowing, and transmitting that heat into the shaft where it finally gets soaked to the water and oil in the center section.

The idea of a secondary cooler for the water supply is a clever idea, and one i had not considered before. Wonder if that has seen implemented before?

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

I think i may be running into that situation. On the testing with Mini i have done so far, when higher boost levels have been applied i notice some coolant was getting pushed into the reservoir. I tried a new cap, and hose clamps on the overflow tube, thinking maybe it wasn't being drawn back in.
It still occurred. I have replaced the radiator but have not been back out to race.
This discussion of localized boiling occuring most likely in the turbo interested me as an explanation of my observations.
If there is an area of massive heat, such as the turbo when in high boost and glowing, i wonder how the cooling system is made capable of handling it?
I might try running a bit heavier mix of antifreeze, but can't see me going to straight antifreeze. I have a 16psi cap i believe. That was what was called for factory stock.

could you be pushing be coolant into the overflow by turning the water pump to hard ?

[wheming]

could you be pushing be coolant into the overflow by turning the water pump to hard ?

That was one of my first thoughts, and wondered if that were even possible. I did port the inside of the water pump housing, smoothing out everything and all the restrictive flashing. But i don't know if the water pump is possible to overpressure the system. Afterall, as fast as it might spin at 6500 engine rpm, the suction of the pump has to be drawing fluid in from the radiator as well.

[GLHS60]

Its nice to get some discussion on the pure A/F topic even if its negative. I think there might be some merit in Robs experiment of running undiluted A/F in our Turbo engines. I'm curious if anyone else has tried this? I plan on trying this my self next year, I'll have to decide what type A/F to use, probably a non silicate.

Thanks
Randy

[Ondonti]

Would be nice if you guys could measure coolant pressure inside the block before it exits the thermostat. The radiator cap is more for boilover at low engine speeds. A good design coolant system will run a lot more pressure at high rpms due to the restriction that should be in place at the thermostat.

Not sure how people drive 1 hour under 7psi boost or how someone has driven 500,000 miles on multiple different coated cast manifolds (100*5000 mile failures for tubulars). Maybe a hour in boost if you are towing with a 2.2 turbo. Only time a 3.0 towing gets warm is when its going 0-25mph in traffic and the fan is not wanting to kick on until it gets to 220. Perfect time to override that fan (only at low speeds). Worked great on a Ford Taurus too.

Also, most tubular manifold failures that are a good design with proper bracing, fail due to poor welds. Thick wall tubular manifolds are a great compromise too if you want to run them. Reason why they sell thousands of them on other platforms.

Pushing coolant under boost, hope your headgasket reseals each time.

Also, while you might be able to run solid 10's on a tiny turbo a little shot of nitrous, I wouldn't suggest copying Pats ultra budget car. We have all succeeded in ways that we would tell others not to try. Same thing to put a very fancy header on a small turbo like Aaron 8 valves did. I wouldn't suggest it. If a person is a professional fabricator or just likes that kinda stuff, then I would say go for it. There a 8 valve mustang deep in the 9's running one of the worst designed log manifolds I have ever seen. I would tell everyone and their mother to not design a manifold like that no matter how fast he went. I have also raced against cars that made huge power gains simply upgrading their turbo manifold from a holy hand grenade bad design to something decent.

[mopar-tech]

Would be nice if you guys could measure coolant pressure inside the block before it exits the thermostat.

I did on the Reliant, can't remember the results though. Engine was setup to shut down if the cooling system exceeded "x" pressure indicating the head was lifting and pressurizing the coolant system.

Not sure how people drive 1 hour under 7psi boost or how someone has driven 500,000 miles on multiple different coated cast manifolds (100*5000 mile failures for tubulars). Maybe a hour in boost if you are towing with a 2.2 turbo. .

I towed with my turbovan- 19 hours in one case at 85 mph with the Reliant out back. Memphis to CT.

[Vigo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_law

'Pressure in an enclosed liquid system is the same everywhere'. Just wanted to get that out there. Good thing brakes work! Measuring pressure in different places is pretty meaningless. Measuring temperature is useful if its telling you where the boiling is happening.

You can't overpressurize a system with a water pump. It doesn't create an overall pressure increase in the system.

[mopar-tech]

'Pressure in an enclosed liquid system is the same everywhere'.

Not true in this case- A coolant system in engine has areas of high and low pressures dictated by several factors including the t-stat or restrictor and the holes in the headgasket that controls flow to the head.

Not to mention the pump itself. There is an area of high pressure on the discharge and a low area on the suction or it would not work.

A static system will have equal pressure, coolant systems in cars will not.

[mopar-tech]

Think engine running vs engine not running- In the "not running" state the pressure will indeed be the same throughout the system (think when you just shut the car off), when running it is different story. I found this out when trying different coolant mods on the Reliant including various restrictor sizes on the outlet to the radiator.

In the Pascal's law example with 2 pistons in a tube filled with water imagine a restrictor in the center of the tube. The piston applying force WILL show a spike in pressure on that side of the restriction will it not? The pressure will equalize on both sides as soon the piston stops moving or moves at a slow enough rate that the restriction has little impact on the pressure readings.

Perhaps I'm confusing two issues, but this is what observed.

[mopar-tech]

Just thought of another perfect example-

We have TACO circulators at work for the heating loop and here is a picture of the one on the right which is running.

50 psi going out, 20 psi going in.