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Thread: Can I gear up my 413?

  1. #1
    turbo addict
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    Can I gear up my 413?

    Im doing a lot of highway driving and with my shorter 225/50 15's the speedo has to read 82 to 75. Its killing my fuel mileage. If I drive with the speedo at 72 my traveler is showing that im getting 8mpg more on average.

    Is there a taller transfer gear I can swap to? The tranny is from a turbo 87 J body. Would a omni or neon have taller transfer gears and if so how much would it lower my RPMs? I know going to a taller tire would be the easiest fix but I dont want to do that right now, as I will be putting on my studs soon, and they are short too. Going lockup would be nice... but not a option right now either.

    I tried searching and couldnt really find the info I need.

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    Here is a link to Gary Donovans Dodge Garage, one of our finest resources. Click on link and search FWD transaxle guide for available A 413 ratios.

    http://www.thedodgegarage.com

    Thanks
    Randy


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  3. #3
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    Auto trannys came with either 2.86 or 3.05 ring and pinion. They also have 1.06 and .91 transfer gear sets. Most turbo trannys came with 3.02 FD. (2.86 with 1.06 transfer set). Some came with even deeper gears. 3.05 with 1.06 for a 3.22 FD. if you could find a .91 gear set that would bring FD down to 2.60 or 2.78 depending on what ring and pinion you have. Dodge garage has all this info.
    Todd

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHS60 View Post
    Here is a link to Gary Donovans Dodge Garage, one of our finest resources. Click on link and search FWD transaxle guide for available A 413 ratios.

    http://www.thedodgegarage.com

    Thanks
    Randy
    Randy trees me on the Dodge garage link. (hehe).
    Todd

  4. #4
    boostaholic bfarroo's Avatar
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    The .91 transfer gears are what your looking for. There use to be a site that would tell you what the trans had based on the stampings on the case but that site went down and I haven't been able to find the info since. My spirit with 205 55 15's will be around 3000 RPM at 75-80 or so. Typically cars with smaller tires had the larger gears so omni's or possibly shadows.

  5. #5
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    I knew about TDG page/info but it doesnt say what application's had what gears.

  6. #6
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    I saw in a post I found while searching you did this swap bfaroo. Did your MPGs go up?

  7. #7
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    Been driving my wife's a670 with the family some longer distances lately and not happy with the high rpm cruise even with lockup. 1994 a670 is a loser That is with taller tires than you have.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  8. #8
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    These tires will be going back on my neon eventuality and ive got some eggshells im going to put 205/60s on. But I know if I can find the gears locally I can get them for $20 so i figured it would be worth it.

  9. #9
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    And I honestly dont care if it looses a little grunt down low. As soon as the turbo spools it lights up the 225s lol.

  10. #10
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    I personally think the .91 gears dont give as good of results as they should on the turbo transmissions because they still dont have lockup converters. Anytime your cruise rpm is less than your stall rpm in the converter you are losing a lot of energy (and mpg) to slippage/heat in the converter, and stock turbo converters are annoyingly (to me..) loose from the facotry.

    For example, my 2.4/auto caravan supposedly has a stock turbo converter in it. If i'm going down the highway at 3500 rpm and floor it, the converter flashes up to 4800rpm before fully 'stalling'. Even if i geared the trans so that the cruise rpm was ~2200, it would still get ---- mpgs because the converter was too loose and it was only transmitting maybe 50% of input torque to the transmission at that rpm and just turning the rest into heat.

    I think AJ did a writeup on what's necessary to convert to a lockup converter.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  11. #11
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    I personally think the .91 gears dont give as good of results as they should on the turbo transmissions because they still dont have lockup converters. Anytime your cruise rpm is less than your stall rpm in the converter you are losing a lot of energy (and mpg) to slippage/heat in the converter, and stock turbo converters are annoyingly (to me..) loose from the facotry.

    For example, my 2.4/auto caravan supposedly has a stock turbo converter in it. If i'm going down the highway at 3500 rpm and floor it, the converter flashes up to 4800rpm before fully 'stalling'. Even if i geared the trans so that the cruise rpm was ~2200, it would still get ---- mpgs because the converter was too loose and it was only transmitting maybe 50% of input torque to the transmission at that rpm and just turning the rest into heat.

    I think AJ did a writeup on what's necessary to convert to a lockup converter.
    So you will be sending me a set that you don't need....
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  12. #12
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    I did .91 gears and a LU, it honestly didn't do much, but it sure made highway driving nicer. New Caravan's have lower gear ratio's due to the V6 having more lower end grunt.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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  13. #13
    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    The real solution is to ditch the slushbox, and run a 5-speed. The OD in the 5-speed makes a world of difference...





    I know, I know, not everybody wants to row their own gears....

  14. #14
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    I have to add, when I put the Neon converter in my van, my MPG honestly went up 4 ish, but couldn't spool the turbo at the track but city/highway manners were insane. IF I ever built a daily driver turbo Mopar, I'd put the Neon converter back in, it was night and day difference over a turbo stall converter.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  15. #15
    turbo addict
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    I dont think I will have converter issues. With the short tires my speedo has ro read 83 to be going 75. I dont have a tach and havent checked it with the scanner but I know the rpms are high.

    I also think this car may have a TBI converter in it. It hooks WAY before the turbo spools. To get it to leave even decent from a stop I have to load it up on the brake.

    Going 5spd is the best for mpg's. But this is my first modded auto car and I love it. The auto kicks butt when street racing. I can actually get it to hook. Im actually so impressed with it I am going to put a auto in the 350hp neon im building. I street race, and I think for that kinda use its the way to go.

  16. #16
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    IIRC there's a part called a stator in the converter that rides a one way sprag and when it breaks and freewheels in both directions you have reduced stall speed and no torque muliplication so it makes the car super doggy.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  17. #17
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanmanČ View Post
    I did .91 gears and a LU, it honestly didn't do much, but it sure made highway driving nicer. New Caravan's have lower gear ratio's due to the V6 having more lower end grunt.
    Sounds like homie has spares! How low in the caravan (lower than .91)? I know people stop paying attention as the years pass. I have 1994 and a 1997ish a670s from Caravan's in my shop that I pulled with Reaper1 this summer. The older one was planned for a rebuild and into wife's daily at some point. I would love an even tighter converter because the current 2500 wouldn't get me where I want on the highway without creating a lot of heat. I don't really know how the lockup works in the a670 and this is the only 3 speed I have ever driven.
    I already sissyfoot the car because it slips on shifts because it was never adjusted a billion dark fluid miles ago. A tighter converter (maybe 2000 rpm) with a healthy transmission would probably still feel peppier than what I have now lightfooting it.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  18. #18
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    What do you mean about how the lockup works? It has a 2 wire plug coming out next to the dipstick that you give power and ground to and it's not PWM like a 604, just switched. Or were you talking about how it works hydraulic circuit wise?

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  19. #19
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    Brent, no spares as I use them for my van, lol. IIRC, my current gear ratio is around the 2.80 mark using the 3rd gen trans. I still think I have the case, I'll dig up the part numbers if I do.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  20. #20
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Can I gear up my 413?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    What do you mean about how the lockup works? It has a 2 wire plug coming out next to the dipstick that you give power and ground to and it's not PWM like a 604, just switched. Or were you talking about how it works hydraulic circuit wise?
    How does that behave when activated below the stall speed?

    Looks like a 2.78 final would be great for the highway (2266 rpms 60mph, 70 @ 2633, 80mph @ 3000). 2.60 tempting though (2100 rpms 60mph, 70 @ 2466, 85mph @ 2833). Those are all happy rpms for the 3.0 but not sure about the converter flashing at 2500.

    BTW, are the 1.22 gears the rare gears? Has anyone ever run the transmission as a 2 speed for racing :P I see I could go over 160 in 2nd with a high rev limiter and 2.60's.
    2000mph in 3rd gear is not helpful for racing (easier to obtain 3.22 final). Where is Acannel and his custom transfer gears?
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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