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Thread: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

  1. #1
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    so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Running the Daytona at 20 psi..1st and second ok...3rd stumbles off a cliff and won't go past 6 psi.

    I think the Cal is way too lean for some reason in that region...how can I confirm? Fwdp stage 5

  2. #2
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    fine in 1st and 2nd but take's a dump in 3rd sounds like the fuel system taking a dump running out of fuel not the cal

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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Quote Originally Posted by bakes View Post
    fine in 1st and 2nd but take's a dump in 3rd sounds like the fuel system taking a dump running out of fuel not the cal
    Okay heres more data. I wrote that brain dead post in a parking lot on my phone.

    The problem actually occurs in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, its just that thirds most noticeable.

    The problem repeats every time, I can make it happen on command.

    The problem did not occur when I had the ECU control the wastegate. The problem started when I connected the manual boost controller.

    If I'm going 50mph with just idle/cruise throttle, in 3rd, then I floor it, the stumbling begins immediately. Thats at around 3500rpm. And thats the same in every gear, only the vehicle speed changes. Cruising around 3500rpm, stomp it, stumble stumble. And when I say stumble, I mean major malfunction. The engine just hiccups continuously and there is no acceleration.

    Now heres the catch, if I dont stomp but just gently accelerate to say 4200 rpm, THEN stomp, everythings okay and it boosts all the way to 20psi to redline.

    I think its a clue that the problem occurs at powerband for a stock engine..perhaps.

    And of course that it seems to be related to using an MBC instead of ECU wastegate control.

    HALP!!!

  4. #4
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Okay heres more data. I wrote that brain dead post in a parking lot on my phone.

    The problem actually occurs in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, its just that thirds most noticeable.

    The problem repeats every time, I can make it happen on command.

    The problem did not occur when I had the ECU control the wastegate. The problem started when I connected the manual boost controller.

    If I'm going 50mph with just idle/cruise throttle, in 3rd, then I floor it, the stumbling begins immediately. Thats at around 3500rpm. And thats the same in every gear, only the vehicle speed changes. Cruising around 3500rpm, stomp it, stumble stumble. And when I say stumble, I mean major malfunction. The engine just hiccups continuously and there is no acceleration.

    Now heres the catch, if I dont stomp but just gently accelerate to say 4200 rpm, THEN stomp, everythings okay and it boosts all the way to 20psi to redline.

    I think its a clue that the problem occurs at powerband for a stock engine..perhaps.

    And of course that it seems to be related to using an MBC instead of ECU wastegate control.

    HALP!!!
    Is the wastegate still hooked up? If not, the overboost is set to a much lower point (in a stock cal of course, FWD S5 I have no idea). You could actually be hitting overboost.
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  5. #5
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    Is the wastegate still hooked up? If not, the overboost is set to a much lower point (in a stock cal of course, FWD S5 I have no idea). You could actually be hitting overboost.
    Yup the wastegate is still hooked up.

    I can still get the engine to operate just fine at 20psi. Its not overboosting. It stumbles when there is 0 to about 6 psi of boost.

    I'll try logging in MPSCAN and MPTUNE.

    Would it make sense for me to try out one of your turbonator cals? Or is my setup too wonky?

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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    okay update:

    I just went for another test drive, but I put the ecu back in control of the wastegate. THe problem is still there! But its not nearly as bad.

    Shelgame: might you know how the engine would run without the knock sensor plugged in? if I want to "force" knock to be zero, should I ground the sensor?

  7. #7
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    do you think the timing curve could be a little too aggressive at that specific rpm? seams like your intake is flowing way more at lower rpms... so if you get it above 4200 rpms and punch it, it runs full boost and no misfires til redline? so its only "misfiring" between 3500 and 4200? is 3500 where your boost spikes? if you punch it at a lower rpm will it make boost and not misfire till 3500?

    i had a problem like this and it was my msd coil, but i only had a misfire between 2200 rpm and 3400 rpm, but was fine after that, it sucked to figure out with a 5 month old coil...

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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    do you think the timing curve could be a little too aggressive at that specific rpm? seams like your intake is flowing way more at lower rpms... so if you get it above 4200 rpms and punch it, it runs full boost and no misfires til redline? so its only "misfiring" between 3500 and 4200? is 3500 where your boost spikes? if you punch it at a lower rpm will it make boost and not misfire till 3500?

    i had a problem like this and it was my msd coil, but i only had a misfire between 2200 rpm and 3400 rpm, but was fine after that, it sucked to figure out with a 5 month old coil...
    i'm not sure...I need a way to eliminate that as a possibility. Im going to log data and see if the sensor are doing anything funny, or perhaps the ECU is retarding timing/fuel on purpose

    is this kind of problem par for the course as far as typical issues when coming up with a cal? maybe the cal I got just wasnt that close to being right for my build...

  9. #9
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    1. so if you get it above 4200 rpms and punch it, it runs full boost and no misfires til redline?

    2. if so, is it only "misfiring" between 3500 and 4200?

    3. if you punch it at a lower rpm will it make boost and not misfire till 3500?

    4. when does your turbo start spooling and what rpm are you at your full boost pressure?

    judging by your other post, seams like you might be fighting detonation issues.

    1b. maybe your setup wasnt flowing as much air before, maybe your turbo is spooling "faster" causing detonation where you didnt have the same boost pressure/flow you did before.

    2b. maybe the extra "flow" is causing a lean condition now at certain boost levels/rpms, do you have any wideband readings?

    3b. does the misfire seam scattered (random) and is there any "backfires" while its happening?

  10. #10
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    What are your A/F readings?
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  11. #11
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    1. so if you get it above 4200 rpms and punch it, it runs full boost and no misfires til redline?
    Its tricky to do it accurately, but basically yes. If I get it up to a high enough rpm and then WOT, its okay.

    2. if so, is it only "misfiring" between 3500 and 4200?
    As far as I can tell.
    3. if you punch it at a lower rpm will it make boost and not misfire till 3500?
    Hmm I should probably test this. But for instance, I can launch in 1st and it shoots straight to 20psi, same with 2nd, but when I get to third and the gear change puts it right into 3500, it just stumbles and wont go anywhere.

    4. when does your turbo start spooling and what rpm are you at your full boost pressure?
    I'm not sure. Data log coming!

    judging by your other post, seams like you might be fighting detonation issues.
    I dont think so because the stumbling happens at 0psi boost so there really isnt any high temperature/pressure state.

    1b. maybe your setup wasnt flowing as much air before, maybe your turbo is spooling "faster" causing detonation where you didnt have the same boost pressure/flow you did before.
    The problem happens at 0psi so its not related to high air flow as far as high power. Although it may be related to airflow/pressure not being what the ECU expects, but I dont think its a matter of "high flow"...etc...

    2b. maybe the extra "flow" is causing a lean condition now at certain boost levels/rpms, do you have any wideband readings?
    I do but they are just me glancing over. Datalog to come! When things are good and its 20psi at 4500rpm+, AFR is 11, 10, etc.. But when its stumbling AFR is very high, 14, 15, 16, 17..

    3b. does the misfire seam scattered (random) and is there any "backfires" while its happening?
    Hard to say. I can make the stumbling happen on command, it always happens. But its not perfectly stable as if you unplugged a spark plug wire. Its more a jerkiness thats semi random. Ill try to get a video.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    What are your A/F readings?
    When its 4500rpm+ and 20psi, 11 to 10. But when its stumbling, more like 14, 15, 16, 17...

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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    fuel pressure regulator is working?
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Try backing the timing off and see if it gets better. If it doesnt it may be a fuel issue. What pump are you running?

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    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    ...if I want to "force" knock to be zero, should I ground the sensor?
    Just unplug it, it's a piezoelectric sensor, which means it makes its own voltage, so if it isn't seeing knock, it doesn't make a voltage*, so 0V = no retard.

    Do so at your own risk, as the ECU will have no way to know if the engine is knocking its brains out or not...

    Mike

    *technically the sensor will generate a small voltage that varies with engine speed/noise, but the ECU is set to ignore anything below a threshold set in the cal.
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    fuel pressure regulator is working?
    AFAIK...no gas in its vac line and its vac line holds vac. AFR's are okay at 4200+rpm at 20psi. So if it has a problem it would be some kind of unusual transient issue which causes it to stick or something. I'm not ruling that out at all, its 6+ years old, but I'm not sure how to prove it. Its an accufab, doesnt that mean I can take it apart and inspect it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowFromHell View Post
    Try backing the timing off and see if it gets better. If it doesnt it may be a fuel issue. What pump are you running?
    I may try adjusting timing for experimental purposes but I'm pretty sure this cal should work with stock timing. If its a fuel issue, its something really strange because AFR's are fine at 20psi full power. The stumbling occurs at 0psi, well before things get flowing..the pump is the 255 walbro

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zin View Post
    Just unplug it, it's a piezoelectric sensor, which means it makes its own voltage, so if it isn't seeing knock, it doesn't make a voltage*, so 0V = no retard.

    Do so at your own risk, as the ECU will have no way to know if the engine is knocking its brains out or not...

    Mike

    *technically the sensor will generate a small voltage that varies with engine speed/noise, but the ECU is set to ignore anything below a threshold set in the cal.
    Its been unplugged the whole time. In fact the knock sensor isnt even under the hood lol. While troubleshooting this I was concerned maybe the ECU didnt like seeing that line floating and perhaps it was picking up stray EMI like an antenna, interpreting it as knock, and retarding timing, causing the issue. So I tried grounding it to the chassis, but that didn't seem to help. I'm going to confirm the ECU isnt pulling timing or detecting knock when I log data soon.

  16. #16
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Is it possible you are using a 2.2 cal on a 2.5?

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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    The problem happens at 0psi so its not related to high air flow as far as high power. Although it may be related to airflow/pressure not being what the ECU expects, but I dont think its a matter of "high flow"...
    so im not thinking its a fuel delivery problem (as in fuel flow and pressure), sounds more like ignition/detonation problem. i believe that your intake may be flowing more volume of air at a given rpm, not just boost pressure (but is compounded by it), until the head becomes the restriction (especially with a stock swirl head). remember we have a speed density computer that can be tricky to tune when when volume of airflow changes. i dont think that unplugging the knock sensor is a good idea, or that the computer will cause this problem because of timing being pulled, this is more of a product of the computer NOT pulling timing at the correct peak torq rpm and probable knock situation.

    also, your wideband will give you a false "lean" reading if the 02 isnt being completely used in the combustion process, so if you are having a misfire condition, it will be hard to detect air fuel ratio with the wideband.

    judging by moparulez problems, with a ported head, he was having a very similar condition, but it continued through the upper rpms where the head continued to flow.

    now, i also had almost the exact same problem with a failing coil, and this could very well be the problem. but i would honestly start with a small change in the ignition timing to see if it helps/resolves the problem, this is free and an easy thing to do and recheck.

  18. #18
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    Try swapping MAP's for sh1ts and giggles. Friends old Laser would do this, Run like crap soon as you hit 0psi then be ok if floored or past about 4psi or so. Swapped MAP's and it was fine.

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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    I only mentioned the regulator because that is what caused my transient problems a few weeks ago. It was leaking internally and an internal part was seized from that gasoline washdown. Ran fine in boost because the rising rate regulator part still worked. My fuel pressure was off by 15-20psi in the transient zone.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  20. #20
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    Re: so this is what a lean Cal feels like?

    okay guys thanks for the ideas. Im going to weld up popes second BMF and then spend the rest of the day troubleshooting.

    Heres my list of ideas to try from you guys and ones I thought up. Some are sort of exclusive of doing others but I'll do them in the order that they are possible in:

    -give MAP sensor its own dedicated line
    -test baro solenoid for leaks
    -verify baro/map vacuum hose hookup is correct
    -monitor map voltage with OTC2000 and see if there are glitches around 0psi (should be able to do this at idle by blipping throttle)
    -log knock retard, knock counts, and injector pulse width using MPSCAN during transient
    -swap to stock cal and 2 bar map (hate to do this..I had it this way a week ago for months but I cant remember if the problem was there or not..duh)
    -check fuel pressure during transient (awkward to do so saving this for last)
    -replace cap and rotor (they do have typical spark erosion. Perhaps I could just flip the wires around as described, and then file the rotor down a bit)
    -monitor TPS voltage and see if it has glitches around 0% (could eliminate this by seeing if problem appears at other throttle positions)
    -replace fuel pressure regulator with stock one (I'm currently at stock fuel pressure anyway)
    -take apart fuel pressure regulator and inspect
    -test spark plug wire resistance
    -test coil using FSM procedure

    Any other ideas please let me know! I've had this car so long now that I can't remember if I had this problem years ago. It seems like the part-throttle stumbling issue is VERY familiar though..but I'm not sure how I could have done any racing with it like this..so thats a mystery

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