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Thread: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

  1. #41
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    It'll be a few days until I dial in my calibration for the stock cam, then I will be playing with the R5.
    this is good to hear... at least some sort of back to back... swirl, g, or 655 head? and ported by you?

  2. #42
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Very high flow setup. 2.2 CB, ported +1mm swirl head, TU header, acannell intake, 58mm TB, 57 trim TO4E with .63 stage 3 etc

    And yes ported by me.

  3. #43
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    sweet, I remember you looking for a 655, so wasn't really sure what you were running, I guess I should have checked your build log...

  4. #44
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Yeah just thinking about future upgrades. I will probably go to a G head, not sure if 655 or not, and a holset he351.

  5. #45
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 168glhs1986 View Post
    Rob, I would tread lightly. Frank already addressed you at least 3 times in this thread.

    For him to do that speaks volumes about your approach.
    Actually, (and I'm not trying to be a smarty pants saying this) Frank addressed me when I originally posted in the TU thread on this cam by deleting that original post. I then answered him and said to delete that as well.

    Next thing you know he (and I'm assuming it was Frank) started This thread with the original post he had deleted? lol (I Never asked anyone to start this thread)

    So I don't know IF Chris thought I started this thread or not? Might explain why he came in here with accusations and in such a defensive posture? Instead of information on his cam, which is what I would have thought would be the Logical thing to do? (and what most seem to be interested in)

    So while I appreciate the concern, I'm Very Surprised you address Me? There was absolutely Nothing "out of sorts" going on in this thread till Chris decided to start rehashing the old clutch thread, for whatever his reasons were. I don't know about you, but I'm Not one to stand by while someone Bold face Lies about me and attempts to put my integrity in question as a Direct result of said lies and accusations.

    You should know me well enough by now to Know I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't have Proof

    So, IF you guys think it's OK for Chris to come on this thread and do what He did, and you Don't think it's OK for me to simply Address what he is doing, then I would have no problem leaving this forum, Never to return, because it would mean that it IS an absolute Joke!

    Remember, I simply deal with the Truth of the matter, Nothing more. All of this emotional outburst from the past crap is (for whatever reason) what others Seem to be drawn into.

    I am debating, since Chris has turned this into a "He said/ She said" whether I should straighten this whole thing out by simply posting the proof that he is either a compulsive liar, or has such a bad memory that he just Doesn't know he's Wrong?

    Just haven't decided IF it's worth it? This is exactly what he did with the clutch thread and now 5 years later, nothing has changed.........

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  6. #46
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    168glhs1986,
    Rob is ok with his discussions here. My issues with his assertions about the R5 vs. F4 was merely addressing how it went down in the TU vendor area.

    Shadow,
    It was me who moved the posts into this section so that any technical discussions about the R5 vs. F4 could still be done... and to explain why we moved the thread into this area versus the TU.

    Chris W,
    Not sure why you felt the need to bring the buffet line of drama to this thread, but it was inappropriate. This thread is about the R5 vs. F4 and the discussions that were moved out of your area for the reasons that were previously listed. You can not say with certainty that Rob would never want to buy the R5 unless he had previously told you that, which you never indicated. He asked to see technical data, so he could compare to his F4. Asking for data on your cam that you are PUBLICLY selling is NOT wrong. Yes his statements about how the F4 is the only proven cam were inappropriate to YOUR section, but they are NOT inappropriate for the technical discussions of this board. This is what makes your assertions inappropriate in this thread. I do not think Rob is trying to screw you over... he merely wants people of this community to achieve their objectives in an informative way. To make the assertions you did require indisputable fact.

    General statements to all,
    Its a shame that the drama equally shared between FWDP and TU has always caused this community to feel that they have to choose sides, hide that they bought a part bought from the other vendor, and caused the staff at TM to always have to police. I have been dragged into drama on both sides many times over and inappropriately taken part of. Looking back on it now, it has always been foolish no matter the side or position taken. It occurs because when it comes to arguments, it is never objective and we try to make it objective. Lets make it a point to always be objective in our discussions.

    Please don't mistake anything I said above for not appreciating what our vendors have been able to provide us. I am very appreciative of custom fuel rails, flanges, shocks struts, clutches, turbos, forged parts, etc. It takes a lot of dedication and commitment. I also understand the complexities of a small community and the small businesses that support it. It is not easy to bring a new product to this community with the limited amount of R&D funds that our vendors have. It increases the risk of a mistake or lack luster expectations. However it cannot be helped and we should be graceful of that.

    Respectfully,
    Frank

    PS> I just wanted to clarify that the drama has been almost non existent in recent times between vendors... these postings were reminiscent of some darker times.
    Last edited by Frank; 11-04-2014 at 01:18 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I see a lot of side stepping when it comes to information available about the F4 while demanding R5 facts.

    Cam vendors have the right to their proprietary information. If you question someones statements about how good the cam will be as if they are being deceptive WHILE pretending you are defending the "community," you are calling into question their character, not the camshaft.

    When you order a custom cam, you have the right to some information if that is what is agreed to at the beginning. In my understanding of the cam community, it is not appropriate to share things like cam doctor #'s etc. If you don't know that, you are are a newbie who needs to be put in their place or you just have no respect for the intellectual pursuits or financial investments of others and that means its more about YOUR ego than anything else.

    I don't think Chris should share anything just like Cindy etc don't share information. I have a custom profile camshaft set that a very well known national company wanted to put on their cam doctor to copy and I had problem with that. I didn't want to do business with them after that. They wanted to copy the camshafts after they knew who had made them. To me that meant they don't know what they are doing. I don't think anyone here on this forum, even the engineeringest of them all could really design a camshaft better than an old man who has cut his teeth making cams for professional race teams. I could never ask him for perfect fitment or dyno proof. You can ask for that from a vendor but the most I would expect is perfect fitment. Results are almost always obscured by the person who purchases the product. I wouldn't want my product judged by a thrown together setup and I would not trust people who post negative things about me to test my product.

    The fact that so many people in the past compared camshafts with zero effort to get the most out of them is a laugh and I give no credit to anyone who decided to get things right just because they drive one of our cars. People have known how to dial in a cam for decades, I won't act like its okay for people with a Dodge to do things backwards for a few decades and then praise the first person who didn't have their head buried in the sand. The engineers here on T-M often sit back and let people do things wrong because most engineers I know and work with do not have the personality to push against the will of the masses. I have seen hundreds of engineers the last few years with these characteristics. 100 engineers cannot sway a determined mechanic from doing something wrong. 10 T-M engineers have no power to sway the personal websites or forum posts of mechanics, especially when 9/10 of them are probably off base our out of their expertise.
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  8. #48
    Heroes never die, they just reload! Turbo Mopar Staff Frank's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I see a lot of side stepping when it comes to information available about the F4 while demanding R5 facts.

    Cam vendors have the right to their proprietary information. If you question someones statements about how good the cam will be as if they are being deceptive WHILE pretending you are defending the "community," you are calling into question their character, not the camshaft.

    When you order a custom cam, you have the right to some information if that is what is agreed to at the beginning. In my understanding of the cam community, it is not appropriate to share things like cam doctor #'s etc. If you don't know that, you are are a newbie who needs to be put in their place or you just have no respect for the intellectual pursuits or financial investments of others and that means its more about YOUR ego than anything else.

    I don't think Chris should share anything just like Cindy etc don't share information. I have a custom profile camshaft set that a very well known national company wanted to put on their cam doctor to copy and I had problem with that. I didn't want to do business with them after that. They wanted to copy the camshafts after they knew who had made them. To me that meant they don't know what they are doing. I don't think anyone here on this forum, even the engineeringest of them all could really design a camshaft better than an old man who has cut his teeth making cams for professional race teams. I could never ask him for perfect fitment or dyno proof. You can ask for that from a vendor but the most I would expect is perfect fitment. Results are almost always obscured by the person who purchases the product. I wouldn't want my product judged by a thrown together setup and I would not trust people who post negative things about me to test my product.

    The fact that so many people in the past compared camshafts with zero effort to get the most out of them is a laugh and I give no credit to anyone who decided to get things right just because they drive one of our cars. People have known how to dial in a cam for decades, I won't act like its okay for people with a Dodge to do things backwards for a few decades and then praise the first person who didn't have their head buried in the sand. The engineers here on T-M often sit back and let people do things wrong because most engineers I know and work with do not have the personality to push against the will of the masses. I have seen hundreds of engineers the last few years with these characteristics. 100 engineers cannot sway a determined mechanic from doing something wrong. 10 T-M engineers have no power to sway the personal websites or forum posts of mechanics, especially when 9/10 of them are probably off base our out of their expertise.
    Not sure I have interpreted what you said appropriately or not, but here is what I, as a consumer expect... even from cam vendors to calibrations.

    If a vendor sells an 'off the shelf solution' to customers, I expect ALL data to be provided and lifted so that I, the customer can make the most informed decision when purchasing. I expect them to be honest with objective evidence on why their cam works over a stock solution or if available, a competitors product.

    If a vendor sells a custom solution, tailored to your setup, I expect that the vendor will ask (and even sign an agreement) you not to share certain aspects or no aspects of that product or how they arrived at those specifications. I do however expect them to allow you to post unfiltered performance results of your dyno tests, etc.

    I think that clarifies what is going on.
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  9. #49
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Heres my take, and what I think are the forces at work here that end up creating the reality we have. And I'm just totally making all this up as I go, no intention to offend anyone:

    Our vendors are not bleeding edge racing teams financed by automotive manufacturers. They may not have the resources to do pure R&D track testing to develop a cam and then sit back while 100,000 units get sold. Its more like find some way to develop a camshaft AT ALL, and then find some way to make enough money doing so that the whole thing makes sense, and if they are lucky sell a few hundred units. This may mean they take their own knowledge and perhaps the knowledge of those they have professional/personal relationships with, do some track and dyno verification of those ideas, maybe one design cycle of regrinding a prototype cam, and call it a day. And I have absolutely no problem with that and am grateful for that level of service to our tiny niche world. Think about it...a new high performance cam being developed and sold for a bargain price, for obscure cars from the 80's and early 90's, in 2014??

    For me, cars are entertainment. I have fun when I put together a rational set of ideas and then buy the parts or do the modifications to implement them, and see the results I expected. But I also have fun experimenting. And when I buy a cam, thats what it will be, an experiment. Its pretty much impossible I will be able to predict what it will do unless someone else with the same build installs it and dynos and tracks it.

    So, where does releasing cam specs fall into all this? Would most people even know what to do with cam specs? Probably not, you'd just get a bunch of bench racing. Would even the fastest racers in the TD/TM world know what to do with the specs? They'd have a better idea than the rest of us, but its still an educated guess, they will be the first to tell you they were not completely sure what a given cam would do when they installed it, or they were surprised by how it worked (bad or good). In the end, the cam specs, for our cars, are pretty much just a wet finger in the air in a hurricane of different builds. Doesn't tell you much.

    Maybe we are looking at this wrong, and as parts buyers, we should be looking at the whole build at once, not trying to fit in a cam after-the-fact. And as vendors, maybe they should be showing us what cam is required in some insane dyno/track proven build they did.

    In other words, what is the hierarchy of components? Shouldnt the cam be one of the first things selected instead of one of the last?

  10. #50
    Heroes never die, they just reload! Turbo Mopar Staff Frank's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Heres my take, and what I think are the forces at work here that end up creating the reality we have. And I'm just totally making all this up as I go, no intention to offend anyone:

    Our vendors are not bleeding edge racing teams financed by automotive manufacturers. They may not have the resources to do pure R&D track testing to develop a cam and then sit back while 100,000 units get sold. Its more like find some way to develop a camshaft AT ALL, and then find some way to make enough money doing so that the whole thing makes sense, and if they are lucky sell a few hundred units. This may mean they take their own knowledge and perhaps the knowledge of those they have professional/personal relationships with, do some track and dyno verification of those ideas, maybe one design cycle of regrinding a prototype cam, and call it a day. And I have absolutely no problem with that and am grateful for that level of service to our tiny niche world. Think about it...a new high performance cam being developed and sold for a bargain price, for obscure cars from the 80's and early 90's, in 2014??

    For me, cars are entertainment. I have fun when I put together a rational set of ideas and then buy the parts or do the modifications to implement them, and see the results I expected. But I also have fun experimenting. And when I buy a cam, thats what it will be, an experiment. Its pretty much impossible I will be able to predict what it will do unless someone else with the same build installs it and dynos and tracks it.

    So, where does releasing cam specs fall into all this? Would most people even know what to do with cam specs? Probably not, you'd just get a bunch of bench racing. Would even the fastest racers in the TD/TM world know what to do with the specs? They'd have a better idea than the rest of us, but its still an educated guess, they will be the first to tell you they were not completely sure what a given cam would do when they installed it, or they were surprised by how it worked (bad or good). In the end, the cam specs, for our cars, are pretty much just a wet finger in the air in a hurricane of different builds. Doesn't tell you much.

    Maybe we are looking at this wrong, and as parts buyers, we should be looking at the whole build at once, not trying to fit in a cam after-the-fact. And as vendors, maybe they should be showing us what cam is required in some insane dyno/track proven build they did.

    In other words, what is the hierarchy of components? Shouldnt the cam be one of the first things selected instead of one of the last?
    Well said.

    I think the cam/timing is the beginning and the end. A stock or the cheapest cam with the obvious adjustable cam gear is towards the beginning and will meet the needs of many. Once you have exhausted all options, you go for the big one - custom or not.
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  11. #51
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    To rephrase, it is the first thing you may adjust but it is the last thing you change.
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  12. #52
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    On cams, the reason we are so secretive is people love to buy them then have them copied. Its happened to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    This statement shows you know absolutely Nothing about cams or performance PERIOD! Boost, on the intake side has ZERO to do with cam selection!!!!!!!!!!
    Can you explain this one please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Then please explain to me how the Charger gained 30-40WHP coming from an already 480WHP (Mustang dyno, so more like 550 Dynojet) with Just a cam swap (F4) and obviously the right springs to go with? And at 3-4psi Less boost to boot!
    Sorry if I missed it, do you have the dyno graph's posted, searching will take forever,

    Quote Originally Posted by moparzrule View Post
    I will be running it on the 15th with it and will have timeslips to go along with it. We'll see.
    Can't wait and see. I need a cam for my 8v minivan.
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  13. #53
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor glhs727's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I don't think Chris should share anything just like Cindy etc don't share information.
    I don't share information? I am more than happy to tell people who my vendors are like my turbo guy, clutch manufacturer etc.... I have also told people to go directly to my sources on occasion. Cam specs, I list them on my site. If you want more specifics, I'm happy to give them if I have them, or know them. If I don't know, I tell people, sorry I don't know. When somebody wanted to know what the PN's of the belts that go to our UDP kits, I posted up a sticky. So I don't appreciate being placed in the same catagory as Chris on the information sharing, as frankly I feel we have been more transparent over the years about our products, vendors and specs.
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  14. #54
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by moparzrule View Post
    I will be running it on the 15th with it and will have timeslips to go along with it. We'll see.
    Is it the 15th yet? IDGAF if the car is tuned to perfection or not, while on the track; I'm interested in listening to your car run with the cam.
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  15. #55
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by glhs727 View Post
    Cam specs, I list them on my site. If you want more specifics, I'm happy to give them if I have them, or know them. .
    Do you have the duration at .050'' lift? We also would like to know the LSA. Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by 86Shelby View Post
    Is it the 15th yet? IDGAF if the car is tuned to perfection or not, while on the track; I'm interested in listening to your car run with the cam.
    Got the fuel and timing pretty close today, close enough anyway. Just waiting on my PT lifters and Fidanza gear to pop in the R5 and start messing with it. The PT lifters will probably be here tomorrow, and I might just swap out the cam with the stock gear on there just to see how it runs straight up for now

  16. #56
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Matt,
    Forget comparing the duration of the F4 to the TU new camshafts. Comparing a cam Dr./Cam Pro valve events #'s against one that is degreed in by hand is of no value. The #'s posted by Chris is from a Cam Pro, and not degreed in on an engine. The #'s just will not be accurate from the Cam-Pro because it is based on a translating follower and not a pivoting follower (like our 8V motors).
    Read post # 254-260 if you want more info about this.
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...F4-Cam!/page13

    To answer your question Matt, according the #'s I received from Cindy or her husband James, the LSA of the F4 is 116 and duration is 213/204 @.050. Intake installed centerline was 109. These #'s look right to me, but if these #'s seem wrong Rob, post up your #'s, as you've stated many times that you degree your cams in. I would love to get some confirmation on these #'s as I did not degree the F4 camshaft in.

    I have installed and degreed in the camshaft that Mike W. has installed in his GLHS into another HP GLHT. It has more lift, more intake duration and 114 LSA compared to the F4 specs that were supplied to me.

    What I would like to hear is someone that actually degrees ANY ONE of these camshafts in and posts the real #'s. IMO, putting any camshaft in straight up is just a wing and a prayer of it being installed even close to where it should be. For example, the last camshaft I degreed in was supposed to have an a 105 IC. Straight up it was 119 IC! So quite a LONG ways off. When I did degree it at 105 IC, valve events looked way wrong! Ended up centerlining that camshaft at 114 or 115. Vehicle ran great! I just assumed I got bad info on intake centerlining from the person that sold us the camshaft. No way would it have performed well at 105 IC.
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  17. #57
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Is the 15th here yet?

  18. #58
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I see a lot of side stepping when it comes to information available about the F4 while demanding R5 facts.
    Really? I've given every Ounce of evidence concerning what the F4 cam has done in the Charger, what is it that you think I'm side stepping?

    Demanding? I Challenge you to Show me where I ever Demanded Anything? WTF happened to this forum? Where you can't even Ask a Q without it turning into a $hitfest?

    Is it paranoia that leads to the Defensive nature that we're seeing, or just shear Ignorance? Seriously, People, How long have I been posting on here? You're telling me that None of you Know me Well enough to Know that when I want to Stir the pot, I'm the First one to Admit that it's exactly what I Intent to do! lol

    So, whether any of you can believe it or not, my original post was to Help promote this new cam, nothing more. Otherwise, Why the heck would I have say "It could be DA'BOMB!"?

    Sometimes I think you guys just Don't take the time to Read and Think before you post.

    Now, of Chris's little meltdown; I've had some time to mull it over and I looked back on some stuff and while I have no PM's left from back then, I do still have the emails we exchanged.

    So, it ended with Chris ready to go ahead with things and with me completely "on the fence" after he pulled Exactly what he started to pull here. (Posting BS about me and what he Thinks my intentions are) We had somewhat reconciled our differences, but I told him after what had gone on, I needed time to Think about it. Cindy had come on in Defence of what Chris had done and made me an offer, I Had to consider it.

    My Last email to Chris was to inform him that I had made my decision to go with Cindy's offer, and to develop a 650-700WTQ single disk clutch for the Charger. As you can guess, I never received a response.

    Now, is this the reason for all of this BS all these years later? Because of Chris's Own actions, I was forced to make a decision and he Blames Me for that? Is it because the clutch I'm running in the Charger ended up being a Total Success and he's pissed about that? Is it because His own Best clutch available through Him failed in Reeves Omni and that bums him?

    I have No clue, but by the sounds of his post, it sounds like he thinks I'M FWD PERFORMANCE!?

    Chris, I'm throwing you a bone here, so listen Closely and really give some Thought Before you post a response. (If you post at all)

    I am Not FWD! I don't know what you guys have against each other, but I can tell you again, just like I did in my email; When I told Cindy I was going to try one of Your clutches, all she did was wish me luck! Doesn't sound like any animosity there? But again, I don't know your history and I don't want to know, as long as from now on you Leave Me out of it!

    I have No hidden agenda or ulterior motives in this! I have Always had 1 purpose on here, to give the Best info and advice I can to help others go Fast........That's IT!

    So, I have no affiliation to any ONE vendor, but IF I'm using parts from them, then of course they will reap the benefit of people Knowing they are on my car And I Will promote what works!

    I said it before and I'll say it again, it is Not on purpose that I haven't bought from you, you just haven't had anything I needed or anything I couldn't get from a vendor that I already deal with and Trust.

    The Only reason I asked you the Q's on the cam is because several individuals in the community Asked Me what I thought and IF it might be the right choice for Them. I simply needed More info to be able to answer those Q's and since You openly posted this;

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    We will be introducing a couple of new roller cams in the next week. One mild and one wild. They are NEW (NOT regrinds) and they are already in stock. We are just waiting on the manufacture to finish reading the specs off a Cam Doctor. In the past we have been left in the dark as well by our suppliers regarding specs. We will provide as much information as possible for those that want to know. I expect to have the information by next week so they should be up on our site at that time.

    Thanks!

    Chris-TU


    I Really didn't think it would be that big a deal?

    I'm sorry you take past events so personally, and it really surprises me that you can't have a more professional attitude on a public forum. (I think you should work towards that my friend)

    Having said all of this, and as much as it May come as a Shock; I would Still consider purchasing from TU IF you had a product I was interested in! lol

    Believe it or not, I Don't harbour any Ill will from anything that has transpired and Never will, it's just Not in my nature. (I have better things to do)

    So in reading this, I hope you are Man enough to own up to your shortcomings in the misrepresentation that you attempted to bring to what transpired between us all those years ago. IF so, I hope we can now bury the Hatchet and Move On.

    This is the Last thing I'm going to post on this topic Unless it doesn't die here. IF I have to, I Will post up the emails to further put this to rest if there is Any dispute of what I have said.

    Now, on to the topic at hand..........
    Last edited by Shadow; 11-05-2014 at 03:45 PM.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  19. #59
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Heres my take, and what I think are the forces at work here that end up creating the reality we have. And I'm just totally making all this up as I go, no intention to offend anyone:

    Our vendors are not bleeding edge racing teams financed by automotive manufacturers. They may not have the resources to do pure R&D track testing to develop a cam and then sit back while 100,000 units get sold. Its more like find some way to develop a camshaft AT ALL, and then find some way to make enough money doing so that the whole thing makes sense, and if they are lucky sell a few hundred units. This may mean they take their own knowledge and perhaps the knowledge of those they have professional/personal relationships with, do some track and dyno verification of those ideas, maybe one design cycle of regrinding a prototype cam, and call it a day. And I have absolutely no problem with that and am grateful for that level of service to our tiny niche world. Think about it...a new high performance cam being developed and sold for a bargain price, for obscure cars from the 80's and early 90's, in 2014??

    For me, cars are entertainment. I have fun when I put together a rational set of ideas and then buy the parts or do the modifications to implement them, and see the results I expected. But I also have fun experimenting. And when I buy a cam, thats what it will be, an experiment. Its pretty much impossible I will be able to predict what it will do unless someone else with the same build installs it and dynos and tracks it.

    So, where does releasing cam specs fall into all this? Would most people even know what to do with cam specs? Probably not, you'd just get a bunch of bench racing. Would even the fastest racers in the TD/TM world know what to do with the specs? They'd have a better idea than the rest of us, but its still an educated guess, they will be the first to tell you they were not completely sure what a given cam would do when they installed it, or they were surprised by how it worked (bad or good). In the end, the cam specs, for our cars, are pretty much just a wet finger in the air in a hurricane of different builds. Doesn't tell you much.

    Maybe we are looking at this wrong, and as parts buyers, we should be looking at the whole build at once, not trying to fit in a cam after-the-fact. And as vendors, maybe they should be showing us what cam is required in some insane dyno/track proven build they did.

    In other words, what is the hierarchy of components? Shouldnt the cam be one of the first things selected instead of one of the last?
    I would agree with most of what you are saying, but will add this;

    Knowing the specs of a cam After the cam has already been Proven is redundant for all intent and purpose. IF it has been Proven, and by Several reputable individuals, the average end user will Never get Better info than that, not even off a cam card.

    Now, having said that, there are a few individuals around here that Know as much about designing a Great cam as any cam grinder that would be making these. THIS is where specs Can help. IF I am running cam X in the Charger and I Know every parameter it has changed from Cam Y (that I was previously running) and it it working flawlessly. I Could go ahead and grind cam Z, based on that info and see what happens. (with very reasonable chance of success) And I could keep doing this till I hit a wall.

    So specs to the end user will really only be good for dialing in the cam. Then you see what it does in the real world. But to the few individuals who have the experience, knowing the specs of a # of cams can leave a nice vapour trail to follow

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  20. #60
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman² View Post
    Can you explain this one please?
    Cam profile will change the motors operating efficiency level at different areas of the RPM (powerband) That will Not be effected by boost pressure. So the only thing you would need to be aware of is too much overlap and possibly running a cam that could "bleed off" boost, but so far I have never seen that happen.

    Now, the turbine side of things would be Much more of a concern to me when selecting a cam

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

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