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Thread: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

  1. #481
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    Not sure where it was revealed that both cams were ground by Colt? However looking at the #'s I'd say both are going to be between 110-115 intake centerline will be the sweet spot. I recommended 112 to someone privately for starters for the F4. I would surmise that not many have degreed them in, that is why no one is answering your question. IIRC Rob had his F4 installed at 115. I think Warren said when he ran one it was advanced a bit more than that. That is not to say that they will be even remotely close if you just install them without degreeing them in. The F4 I degreed in was ground pretty retarded. The R5 less retarded but still retarded a bit compared to it's LSA. Hope this info helps. The R4+ appears to be ground WAY retarded.
    Todd
    This is helpful. Some of the discussion in this thread involved the idea that you had to degree the cam yourself because you couldn't trust the published numbers. I installed my cam straight up several months ago (before this discussion was started) and didn't check at all because I trusted that the grinding job had been correctly. I was curious to known if the cams were ground almost at random or in a consistently biased way (always retarded a few degrees, always advanced a few degrees, or dead nuts on). With so few observations, I don't think we can draw any conclusions.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Wow, hard to believe there's been no update in here in a while.
    I should give some, since they are back in stock!

    I've been using a TU R5 cam in MeanMini and was part of the major rebuild upgrade i had done through Brian Slowe, who did all the assembly, rebuild, maintenance and custom fab work in order to complete this project, (which included properly degree'ing the R5 cam).
    I've got parts on her from all the vendors, but some of big ticket were purchased from TU.
    I've been driving the van with this build for i guess a little over two years. She made her re-debut at SDAC25, and I've been working on and learning the tuning aspects of the flashable SMEC and software, and taking it slow adding the power over that time. Although she hasn't even realized her full potential, she has exceeding all of my expectations. I really never set out to make her regain the title of fastest no-nitrous fwd Mopar minivan...but she has. The TU R5 cam is part of the recipe.
    I don't even think i have collected everything that would totally optimize this build, and yet the timeslips are there to prove one thing....MeanMini can really haul down the quarter.

    They'll always be a difference of opinion, no matter what and that diversity is part of life. For me, i am very happy with the present results. And I really look forward to, and can't even imagine what her limit might be, as the current record is with "only" 25psi boost...

    Thanks TU for bringing interesting and useful products to market for our *very* small community!
    (Actually, that goes well for all of our vendors! Big and small.) And thank you Chris for help, advice, and custom work for your part of my very involved project!
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  3. #483
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Wow, hard to believe there's been no update in here in a while.
    I should give some, since they are back in stock!

    I've been using a TU R5 cam in MeanMini and was part of the major rebuild upgrade i had done through Brian Slowe, who did all the assembly, rebuild, maintenance and custom fab work in order to complete this project, (which included properly degree'ing the R5 cam).
    I've got parts on her from all the vendors, but some of big ticket were purchased from TU.
    I've been driving the van with this build for i guess a little over two years. She made her re-debut at SDAC25, and I've been working on and learning the tuning aspects of the flashable SMEC and software, and taking it slow adding the power over that time. Although she hasn't even realized her full potential, she has exceeding all of my expectations. I really never set out to make her regain the title of fastest no-nitrous fwd Mopar minivan...but she has. The TU R5 cam is part of the recipe.
    I don't even think i have collected everything that would totally optimize this build, and yet the timeslips are there to prove one thing....MeanMini can really haul down the quarter.

    They'll always be a difference of opinion, no matter what and that diversity is part of life. For me, i am very happy with the present results. And I really look forward to, and can't even imagine what her limit might be, as the current record is with "only" 25psi boost...

    Thanks TU for bringing interesting and useful products to market for our *very* small community!
    (Actually, that goes well for all of our vendors! Big and small.) And thank you Chris for help, advice, and custom work for your part of my very involved project!
    Wayne, not sure if you posted it somewhere or not, but what RPM are you shifting at with the R5 cam? (if you don't mind me asking)

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
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    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  4. #484
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Wayne, not sure if you posted it somewhere or not, but what RPM are you shifting at with the R5 cam? (if you don't mind me asking)
    Rob, it is posted somewhere, but having a few threads (like every time i go racing) i'm not sure where it is!
    And, i don't mind you asking. I'll try to answer anything as best as i can.

    I've tried some different shift points and haven't been very scientific with it yet. I've tried advancing the cam a bit also, but now i am back to right where Brian had it degreed.
    To answer, i have tried 6500, and 6100, and 6300. In 2nd gear at 6500 it still feels like she is pulling, but i have stock rods (with ARP hardware) and wasn't keen on pushing further.

    When i do get it on the dyno, i'll be real curious to see the shape of the curve, and how it looks at those rev's.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Wayne et al, what kind of vacuum are you guys pulling at idle?

  6. #486
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Wayne et al, what kind of vacuum are you guys pulling at idle?
    I have 15-16" Hg
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  7. #487
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Rob, it is posted somewhere, but having a few threads (like every time i go racing) i'm not sure where it is!
    And, i don't mind you asking. I'll try to answer anything as best as i can.

    I've tried some different shift points and haven't been very scientific with it yet. I've tried advancing the cam a bit also, but now i am back to right where Brian had it degreed.
    To answer, i have tried 6500, and 6100, and 6300. In 2nd gear at 6500 it still feels like she is pulling, but i have stock rods (with ARP hardware) and wasn't keen on pushing further.

    When i do get it on the dyno, i'll be real curious to see the shape of the curve, and how it looks at those rev's.
    I figured as much, but always need to throw that in as there Are those out there who only Use the forums to aid their own ventures and then want to keep all other info to themselves (I never really got this, but whatever)

    Some good info and from what you're saying, sounds Very close to the F4 as far as peak power on a 2.5l. Will be interesting to see how it does on the dyno. Not because the actual power #'s mean all that much, but the curve itself!

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  8. #488
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    I figured as much, but always need to throw that in as there Are those out there who only Use the forums to aid their own ventures and then want to keep all other info to themselves (I never really got this, but whatever)

    Some good info and from what you're saying, sounds Very close to the F4 as far as peak power on a 2.5l. Will be interesting to see how it does on the dyno. Not because the actual power #'s mean all that much, but the curve itself!
    That is really the thing i'm most interesting in - the shape of the curve. And like i said, to try and see what cam positioning makes the curve higher.
    I admit, i'd like to see a nice higher number, but know it is essentially meaningless since i plan to eventually run higher boost at the track than I'll have on the dyno.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  9. #489
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    I have 15-16" Hg
    Interesting. I bet this cam would still do well with gas mileage on long trips when it's spinning at the RPM our 555 or 568s put out. Heck, even with a hybrid trans it'll probably just aid overall efficiency in that range and not hurt mpgs. I'd like to say I'm all about performance, but the most miles I put on my TMs are either DDing or driving to and from SDAC.

  10. #490
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Interesting. I bet this cam would still do well with gas mileage on long trips when it's spinning at the RPM our 555 or 568s put out. Heck, even with a hybrid trans it'll probably just aid overall efficiency in that range and not hurt mpgs. I'd like to say I'm all about performance, but the most miles I put on my TMs are either DDing or driving to and from SDAC.
    I would think so, because Mini got 22 mpg hwy with the auto.
    I imagine the 5spd could do better...
    It's like you guys haven't paid any attention to my last 3 years of work... lol
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    I would think so, because Mini got 22 mpg hwy with the auto.
    I imagine the 5spd could do better...
    It's like you guys haven't paid any attention to my last 3 years of work... lol
    22 is pretty good. The most I've seen claimed is 24mpg in a van. With your high stall non-lock-up converter I would imagine that you're giving up quite a bit there.

  12. #492
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Interesting. I bet this cam would still do well with gas mileage on long trips when it's spinning at the RPM our 555 or 568s put out. Heck, even with a hybrid trans it'll probably just aid overall efficiency in that range and not hurt mpgs. I'd like to say I'm all about performance, but the most miles I put on my TMs are either DDing or driving to and from SDAC.

    I had one of these from the first batch in my 2.2 Daytona. It pulled about 18inHg at idle, and managed 29mpg @75mph highway with an A555 and 205/60/15 tires.

    Now I have one from the second batch which has been properly heat treated and hardened. I haven't had a lot of time to play with it yet but the idle vac is about the same and the quick lap I did around town felt roughly the same as before too.

    I will note that the cam from the second batch I received seemed to have the slot for the gear key machined just a little too narrow. I had to pass my cam key over the bench grinder quick a few times to get it to press in.

  13. #493
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    ^ Sorry, the "reply with quote" is still not working for me. I noticed the keyway being tight on the first batch too, when I degreed them in for Chris. Still trying to find time to degree the new batch in. Working on GLHS Omni for friend. Close to being done, so getting closer to finding some time. I did some preliminary checking of cam, and it appears to be the same grind.
    Todd

  14. #494
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    ^ Sorry, the "reply with quote" is still not working for me. I noticed the keyway being tight on the first batch too, when I degreed them in for Chris. Still trying to find time to degree the new batch in. Working on GLHS Omni for friend. Close to being done, so getting closer to finding some time. I did some preliminary checking of cam, and it appears to be the same grind.
    Todd
    We are test fitting woodruff keys to verify fitment prior to shipping. Out of the first 15 camshafts we tested only 3 required minimal chamfering. We also contemplated including the keys with the camshaft but so far have not been able to secure a vendor for them.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    22 is pretty good. The most I've seen claimed is 24mpg in a van. With your high stall non-lock-up converter I would imagine that you're giving up quite a bit there.
    I assume you mean turbo. My friend Strax22's 95 2.5/5spd we built did 24mpg @ 70-75 right off the bat. My 2.5/5spd TBI did 27@75mph, 33mpg @ 55mph bone stock. After turbo conversion it still has the exact same head and bottom end (aside from me changing the ring gaps) but i've never checked mpg on it since turbo conversion.

    The 3.0/5spd Grand Caravan me and INVUjerry built last Thanksgiving did 24-27mpg when he drove it from Texas back to Pennsylvania. I would consider 24 to be a "if it doesn't do at LEAST that then it's broken somehow" number for a 5spd mini.

    Having said that, 22mpg in an auto is impressive!

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    ....
    Having said that, 22mpg in an auto is impressive!
    I'm glad you think so, because I sure thought so!
    Static compression only ~8.2ish:1,
    High stall converter, and a calculated converter slip @114mph was like 23-24%.
    Sounds unbelievable!
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    I assume you mean turbo. My friend Strax22's 95 2.5/5spd we built did 24mpg @ 70-75 right off the bat. My 2.5/5spd TBI did 27@75mph, 33mpg @ 55mph bone stock. After turbo conversion it still has the exact same head and bottom end (aside from me changing the ring gaps) but i've never checked mpg on it since turbo conversion.

    The 3.0/5spd Grand Caravan me and INVUjerry built last Thanksgiving did 24-27mpg when he drove it from Texas back to Pennsylvania. I would consider 24 to be a "if it doesn't do at LEAST that then it's broken somehow" number for a 5spd mini.

    Having said that, 22mpg in an auto is impressive!
    Yes, turbo, but also automatic. In my experience the turbo cars generally get better mileage than their NA doubles, but it could just be the examples I've had first hand experience with. Depending on gearing and 2.2/2.5 I would think that 27-30 would be doable with the 5 speed pretty easily.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    I'm glad you think so, because I sure thought so!
    Static compression only ~8.2ish:1,
    High stall converter, and a calculated converter slip @114mph was like 23-24%.
    Sounds unbelievable!
    No doubt, I was lucky to get 17/18 with my low stall, when I want high stall, 13/14 mpg was the best I could get.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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  19. #499
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    TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Ok, I understand there hasn’t been much action in this thread in a bit, but I have a question from my machinist who’s setting up my head for the R5 cam...
    Spring loads? And requirements? 🤷🏼-♂️
    Open/closed pressures?
    Thanks, in advance.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #500
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I would run something like the Comp Cams conicals around 1.700" which will put you around 130 something closed and around 280 lbs open. The conventional 942 Comp spring will fall close @ around 115 closed and 280 open at those same heights. There are other springs that will have close to those spring rates. Machinist might have problems getting to 1.7 something depending on valve choice (tip heights). Whatever he does don't have them sink valves to gain heights. You'll kill the flow of cylinder head. One thing to be careful of is to watch is retainer/keeper to valve guide/seal clearance with this much lift of camshaft. Also make sure you have .050 clearance at all valve lifts on all valves from top of retainer to followers.
    Todd

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