TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

[acannell]

Heres another way to think about it: if you handed a non-automotive machine shop two shafts and asked them to synchronize them a certain way, they wouldn't need to go buy an engine or go to comp-cams website to do it.

IMO the further away from "cam lingo" and industry jargon this discussion gets, the more powerful peoples understandings and tools become.

[turismolover22]

I would think you still need the wheelbecause even with the "marks" method, you still couldnt be precise enough to get it degreed exactly where its supposed to be. And in the case of a poor grind, it would make "off" events that much harder to identify and determine.

[acannell]

I understand what you're saying but what are you going to divide by two? The distance between both marks? I would think that is extremely time consuming and not what I would consider accurate.
Even using a dial indicator on the piston isn't perfect as there is what I call a dead spotwhere you can turn the crank a little when it's between the up and down stroke and the dial indicator doesn't move. True TDC is right between these two actions.

You could literally just eyeball it. It will be very inaccurate at first but as you get close it will get more and more precise until you are turning the crank back and forth 1/10th of a degree and then the accuracy is very high.

A dial indicator is the same idea. Divide the measurements by two to find the "true center".

And none of these things get fixed when you use a degree wheel, because you can only mount the degree wheel after locating TDC using one of these methods anyways, so the wheel is only as accurate as these methods.

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I would think you still need the wheelbecause even with the "marks" method, you still couldnt be precise enough to get it degreed exactly where its supposed to be.

Why not?

The degree wheel doesnt locate TDC anyway. You have to use something like the "marks", or dial indicator, or piston stop, to align and mount the wheel.

[acannell]

From "Lunati Power"...blecch I dont like referencing more "cam lingo" junk but heres how they say to find TDC:

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams...egreeACam.aspx

"The next step is to find true Top Dead Center (TDC). The most accurate method is to secure a flat strap (1-1/2 x 1) that will bridge the bore (with the heads removed). A Steel Deck Strap Kit is included in the Lunati Degree Wheel Kit, or is available separately (P/N 80013). (If the heads are on the engine, another method of finding TDC is necessary. This method uses an old, discarded sparkplug. Remove the porcelain and use a tap, 3/8" 24NF, to cut threads through the plug. Insert a Bolt so that it will protrude through the plug approximately one inch. Remove the rocker arms and push-rods so the valves will not be bent."

Sounds like a piston stop to me.

All the degree wheel does in that case is "make the marks for you" which is a little more convenient. You could still just do it with a scribe and a fixed object right next to the crank pulley..

[4 l-bodies]

Matt,
We won't be holding our breath looking for new TU cam #'s from you (lol). Todd

This catiness and backstabbing shitt has got to stop. What are we? 3? Time for everyone to grow up, I've been here for 9 years and somethings never change, how sad. Why don't we pull the knives out of said backs and just concentrate on building fast cars/vans without the drama. Bad enough we have members slamming Gary D! TD is still taking shots at TM but I haven't seen any on here for awhile, at least that's a start.

Probably not, he and others still going at Chris for not having his specs handy. The point still remains, too much crap still going on. Shouldn't have said anything, not my place and its never going to stop.

Bro, people simply need to DO what they say they are going to do in the First place and there would be No Drama!

The lol wasn't there for sarcasm. His implication is that if I'm not ''professional'' enough to degree in a cam than my results are void because I don't know what I'm doing, and that since I don't know how to tune that I'm going to take forever to get results. So he's not holding his breath for the results, that part was 100% serious. So the lol was simply saying to everyone else that he thinks I'm a joke.

Matt, and others, you definitely misunderstood what I was saying here. Rob gets it. TU had a flyer in the SDAC goody bag about new line of camshafts, and that complete specs will be available. Yay! That was in June. Post in July saying camshafts were shipped. Post in early August saying they were in should be available in a couple weeks. Now here we are in middle in November, and some of us are still waiting for the specs to be made available. When I couldn't find them, I contacted Chris by PM on Oct. 31st. Chris did immediately contact me (even while attending a Halloween party). He gave me some basic specs on phone at that time. Now that they have shipped, I was hoping someone was going to degree either one of those camshaft in an engine and provide us REAL not Cam-Pro specs. Having degreed many cams in by Cam-Pro, I knew these #'s would not be accurate as installed in an engine. I have stated this reason why #'s won't be accurate several times before.
There are several of us that are in the market for a camshaft to compliment high flowing heads. Even more of us that won't purchase a camshaft without complete info on them. Matt you stated your opinion clearly about the lack of importance to you on degreeing in a camshaft, and that dialing in yours will be done by other means. So since you have no intention of degreeing your new TU camshaft in, and hence won't be able to supply this info to people that are looking for it. To be honest, I was a tad disappointed to hear that (the reason for my sarcastic smiley). I was simply expressing we (I) won't be looking for #'s from you. Maybe a better choice of words would have been, I'll take you off the short list of people that could supply this info. Has nothing to do with tuning abilities, cattiness or backstabbing or anything like that. Those are not my words, but rather it seems like some people just go looking for drama, making implications, or assumptions, where none was intended. Matt, your reading WAY TOO FAR into it. FOR THE RECORD, JUST LOOKING FOR THE NUMBERS FROM ANYONE THAT CAN SUPPLY THEM, AND WILL BE GRATEFUL FOR THAT INFO. I will then determine whether that camshaft profile is what I'm looking for. Others can then do the same.
Todd

[Gaboon]

Still need a degree wheel......

You mount the wheel on the crank and a pointer to the degree wheel. You then bring the engine to approx TDC using the timing window on our cars, back it up a little then insert your piston stop in #1.
Now rotate then engine forward until the piston contacts the piston stop. Take a reading of where the pointer is on your degree wheel. (lets say 108 deg) then rotate the engine backwards until the piston comes up again and contacts the piston stop. Take a reading again (lets say 90 deg) add both readings (198) devide by two = 99 deg. remove the piston stop and turn the engine until the pointer points at 99 deg. This is true TDC.
Now you have the choice of either moving the pointer or rotating the deg wheel so the pointer points to 0 (TDC)
From this point, you can do whatever it is you intend to such as verify the installed centerline of your cam using a dial inticator on the spring retainers.

[bakes]

just google print your own degree wheel and make your own

[sdac guy]

From the cam-card? Certainly no way of measuring the cam is going to tell you that without some kind of agreed upon reference. Whats your point?

The point is, I've never seen any thing documenting what the valve/lobe lift is at TDC. It is not info that is supplied on the cam card or on any other documentation supplied with the cam. I have seen it documented as part of engine build measurements done after the cam is installed at the proper centerline (using the procedure I posted).

A good engine builder will do these measurements after installation to document where all the valve events happen, whether before, at, or after TDC. But this info is rarely, if ever, supplied with the cam. That is why the cam card lists the appropriate "installed intake centerline". So the cam can be installed properly, i.e. where the cam manufacturer designed it to be installed.

Your method will not work because the data you need to use is not available. Go look at any of the cam cards or data posted online and see if you can find a specification that lists "lift at TDC". You won't find it.


Barry

[acannell]

Still need a degree wheel......

You mount the wheel on the crank and a pointer to the degree wheel. You then bring the engine to approx TDC using the timing window on our cars, back it up a little then insert your piston stop in #1.
Now rotate then engine forward until the piston contacts the piston stop. Take a reading of where the pointer is on your degree wheel. (lets say 108 deg) then rotate the engine backwards until the piston comes up again and contacts the piston stop. Take a reading again (lets say 90 deg) add both readings (198) devide by two = 99 deg. remove the piston stop and turn the engine until the pointer points at 99 deg. This is true TDC.
Now you have the choice of either moving the pointer or rotating the deg wheel so the pointer points to 0 (TDC)
From this point, you can do whatever it is you intend to such as verify the installed centerline of your cam using a dial inticator on the spring retainers.

Sure this would work. Im just saying you could do it without a degree wheel by making marks. Depending on where your piston stop actually touches the piston in the cycle, your marks could be very close together at which point you could easily distinguish the center. If the piston stop blocks the piston half way through its stroke, thats not going to help much because the piston stop contact marks will be about 180 degrees apart.. So you would need to make sure it stops it as near to TDC as possible.

Id also suggest using an electrically isolated piston stop so you could use an ohmmeter and verify when it makes contact electrically instead of by feel.

Actually, if you used an adjustable stop, you could just keep moving it away until it touches for only an extremely brief almost indistinguishable amount of rotation (electrically sensed), and that would also indicate true TDC.

But again I'm not saying dont use a degree wheel on the crank. In fact this is all a tangent off my original procedure, which still nobody has addressed. Once you get the crank at TDC, you just need to get the cam wherever it needs to be (as agreed on with cam designer) to match TDC. So a way to precisely measure cam rotation would help. Or if your cam designer is nice enough to tell you a specific lobe displacement at crankshaft TDC, then you can directly measure that displacement using a dial indicator and sync them that way.

I am just trying to make the point that its more beneficial for people learning to see whats actually going on. Blindly following procedures or people who know what they are doing makes for good assistants but not so good if you actually want to understand and be in control of whats happening.

[Gaboon]

Guess I'm a good assistant...
These are the same procedures utilized by professional NHRA / NASCAR race teams to degree their camshafts.

BTW, I write procedures for a living.

[acannell]

Your method will not work because the data you need to use is not available. Go look at any of the cam cards or data posted online and see if you can find a specification that lists "lift at TDC". You won't find it.


Barry

Lets say the cam card specifies that the engine should be at a certain number of degrees from TDC when the cam is at centerline. I think thats what you are suggesting is the most common data available.

So in that case, set the engine to TDC.

Then locate the cam centerline by monitoring valve lift.

Then precisely rotate the cam one half the degrees specified for crankshaft rotation.

[acannell]

Guess I'm a good assistant...
These are the same procedures utilized by professional NHRA / NASCAR race teams to degree their camshafts.

BTW, I write procedures for a living.

I said blindly following procedures or other people makes for an assistant. I didn't saying following procedures at all does.

[Gaboon]

I said blindly following procedures or other people makes for an assistant. I didn't saying following procedures at all does.

Just giving you a hard time.

[Shadow]

If you set the crankshaft to TDC using a piston stop and reversing rotation, dividing until you precisely nail TDC, then we are agreed the engine is at a known point, yes?

Agreed

So then all you need to do to synchronize the camshaft to the crankshaft is rotate the camshaft until its at wherever its supposed to be at crankshaft TDC. In the case where the crankshaft TDC synchronization point of the camshaft is precisely called out (lets say x.xx" valve lift), then you dont need a degree wheel at all, just a dial indicator.

In the case where the TDC sync point is described in a way which can't be precisely-enough determined from the "cam card", such as "x.xx degrees rotated CW from x.xx valve lift" then you need a way to measure camshaft rotation precisely...i.e. a "degree wheel".

Disagree, as I said before, degree wheel on the camshaft is absolutely Useless and even mentioning it makes me think you are thinking of this completely Backwards. The Only thing that you Need to know in Degrees is the Crank rotation, Cam rotation in degrees is of No consequence. What IS of consequence regarding the cam is Valve events, like Valve opening ect which only requires a dial indicator. So Hopefully we can agree that even "hinting" toward using a Degree wheel on the cam, while also arguing why Not to use a degree wheel on the Crank, is simply a lesson in futility. (waisted discussion because why the H#ll would you Waist your time screwing with "scribed" marks for what IS important, then use the Very Tool you Could have used on a component that Does Not Need IT!!!!!!! lol)

Sure you can..just make marks and continue to divide by two. The precision is bad at first and gets very accurate the closer you get.

Or use a different method to locate TDC like a dial indicator, or manometer or etc..etc..

Im not saying you shouldn't use a degree wheel on the crank, I'm saying you don't have to.

Again, Your argument is like saying you don't have to use a heat source to cook an egg, wait long enough and it will simply cook itself. (or maybe from all the body heat generated in the time waisted vs frustration?) On the other hand, I Will use my heat source to cook my water because I can get rid of any bacteria that May be present, and H#ll, I Have the heat source, so I might as well use it on something! lol

Now, Don't take this the Wrong way. I'm Not trying to belittle what you obviously Feel is a Valid point. I'm simply trying to Shock you into the contradiction I hear in your attempt to rationalise your approach!

There is Nothing wrong with following where the mind Wants to go. But you Need to remain clear headed enough to hear your Own contradictions along the way!

Try to Understand Why using the degree wheel on the Cam is a Total Waste for starters. Then the picture May become a little Clearer for you........

[acannell]

Agreed



Disagree, as I said before, degree wheel on the camshaft is absolutely Useless and even mentioning it makes me think you are thinking of this completely Backwards. The Only thing that you Need to know in Degrees is the Crank rotation, Cam rotation in degrees is of No consequence. What IS of consequence regarding the cam is Valve events, like Valve opening ect which only requires a dial indicator. So Hopefully we can agree that even "hinting" toward using a Degree wheel on the cam, while also arguing why Not to use a degree wheel on the Crank, is simply a lesson in futility. (waisted discussion because why the H#ll would you Waist your time screwing with "scribed" marks for what IS important, then use the Very Tool you Could have used on a component that Does Not Need IT!!!!!!! lol)





Again, Your argument is like saying you don't have to use a heat source to cook an egg, wait long enough and it will simply cook itself. (or maybe from all the body heat generated in the time waisted vs frustration?) On the other hand, I Will use my heat source to cook my water because I can get rid of any bacteria that May be present, and H#ll, I Have the heat source, so I might as well use it on something! lol

Now, Don't take this the Wrong way. I'm Not trying to belittle what you obviously Feel is a Valid point. I'm simply trying to Shock you into the contradiction I hear in your attempt to rationalise your approach!

There is Nothing wrong with following where the mind Wants to go. But you Need to remain clear headed enough to hear your Own contradictions along the way!

Try to Understand Why using the degree wheel on the Cam is a Total Waste for starters. Then the picture May become a little Clearer for you........

Well the original point I was making is that you could synchronize the camshaft with the crankshaft a zillion ways, not just whatever is popular or described by cam companies. Its just two shafts. And my secondary point is that cam lingo/industry jargon does more to obscure the simplicity of whats going than illuminate it. And so by example I've been describing various methods which all have the same result.

The discussion doesn't really go anywhere unless you specifically explain exactly what what I have described wouldn't work. Only then will true understanding result, Obi-wan.

Heres another example: when you reinstall your timing belt on your stock cam, you are synchronizing the cam to the crank with the crank at TDC. Chrysler gave you an agreed upon rotation of the cam via the sprocket arrows and the head bearing cap parting line. What I'm saying is the same thing, but instead of using those alignment points, using whatever your cam designer said to use. And since he probably defined it as a centerline, you will need to locate centerline using a dial indicator, then rotate the cam half the crank degrees specified, and that is where the cam degree wheel comes in.

[moparzrule]

Matt you stated your opinion clearly about the lack of importance to you on degreeing in a camshaft, and that dialing in yours will be done by other means. So since you have no intention of degreeing your new TU camshaft in, and hence won't be able to supply this info to people that are looking for it. To be honest, I was a tad disappointed to hear that (the reason for my sarcastic smiley). I was simply expressing we (I) won't be looking for #'s from you. Maybe a better choice of words would have been, I'll take you off the short list of people that could supply this info. Has nothing to do with tuning abilities, cattiness or backstabbing or anything like that. Those are not my words, but rather it seems like some people just go looking for drama, making implications, or assumptions, where none was intended. Matt, your reading WAY TOO FAR into it. FOR THE RECORD, JUST LOOKING FOR THE NUMBERS FROM ANYONE THAT CAN SUPPLY THEM, AND WILL BE GRATEFUL FOR THAT INFO. I will then determine whether that camshaft profile is what I'm looking for. Others can then do the same.
Todd

If that's the case, than I don't understand why the lol was needed first of all (because that should have been a serious statement)....and secondly, you wouldn't have needed to go into all the explanation of how you like to degree in cams so your tune is closer from the start (while knowing I'm having trouble with my tune at the moment). At that point it appeared like nothing more than a personal dig at me. If that was not the intent I apologize, but I've re-read what you wrote and it still seems that way to me.

[4 l-bodies]

If that's the case, than I don't understand why the lol was needed first of all (because that should have been a serious statement)....and secondly, you wouldn't have needed to go into all the explanation of how you like to degree in cams so your tune is closer from the start (while knowing I'm having trouble with my tune at the moment). At that point it appeared like nothing more than a personal dig at me. If that was not the intent I apologize, but I've re-read what you wrote and it still seems that way to me.

Looking back I would have worded it different had I a "do over". Didn't mean any disrespect or digs at you at all. I apologize as well if you took offense to my words.
I personally think it's great that you grabbing the bull by the horns and doing this so quickly! That is why I wished you good luck on your build. Truly meant it, and that was not some sort of dig either.
Todd

[acannell]

Looking back I would have worded it different had I a "do over". Didn't mean any disrespect or digs at you at all. I apologize as well if you took offense to my words.
I personally think it's great that you grabbing the bull by the horns and doing this so quickly! That is why I wished you good luck on your build. Truly meant it, and that was not some sort of dig either.
Todd

Awwwwww!!!

[Gaboon]

Heres another example: when you reinstall your timing belt on your stock cam, you are synchronizing the cam to the crank with the crank at TDC. Chrysler gave you an agreed upon rotation of the cam via the sprocket arrows and the head bearing cap parting line. What I'm saying is the same thing, but instead of using those alignment points, using whatever your cam designer said to use. And since he probably defined it as a centerline, you will need to locate centerline using a dial indicator, then rotate the cam half the crank degrees specified, and that is where the cam degree wheel comes in.

See that's the thing, the cam manufacturing industry usually provides you with various specs including the recommended installed centerline. The industry has also developed specific tools to measure with and specific instructions to be utilized to ensure proper installation.
You know as well as I do that Chrysler gives you a simple instruction to install you belt onto your crank and cam but what we're trying to achieve is something more precise than that. We're attempting to set the camshaft to specific recommended installed centerline which will vary from engine to engine it's installed into.

Oh and Chris, you can thank me for getting this off topic. Who loves ya big guy!!

[acannell]

See that's the thing, the cam manufacturing industry usually provides you with various specs including the recommended installed centerline. The industry has also developed specific tools to measure with and specific instructions to be utilized to ensure proper installation.
You know as well as I do that Chrysler gives you a simple instruction to install you belt onto your crank and cam but what we're trying to achieve is something more precise than that. We're attempting to set the camshaft to specific recommended installed centerline which will vary from engine to engine it's installed into.

Oh and Chris, you can thank me for getting this off topic. Who loves ya big guy!!

Yes, definitely, we want something superior to "visually align arrows at a distance"..agreed.

Im not saying skimp on the precision, I'm referencing the stock install method because its the same thing, only when we are putting in our racing camshaft we will have to probably use a "centerline" as our alignment point instead of "arrows and bearing cap" both for precision and because who knows if the new cam design has anything to do with the key. And since almost certainly the sync point with crank TDC is not literally centerline but some amount of rotation from centerline, we'd need a cam degree wheel to get there from centerline. No loss of precision.

List of events and minimum equipment needed to precisely locate them:

Cam valve lift: dial indicator
Cam lobe displacement: dial indicator
Cam centerline: dial indicator
Crank TDC: fixed piston stop + degree wheel/scribes, adjustable piston stop, manometer, dial indicator, others...
Cam rotation from centerline/lift/displacement: dial indicator + cam degree wheel

Mix that soup up and you have a few ways to sync the cam and crank to arbitrary relationships at maximum precision without a degree wheel on the crank..the only info you need on the cam card is centerline distance from TDC. And even if for some strange reason you didnt have that but had duration at lift and symmetrical lobes you could derive centerline.

And if you can sync then you can measure so that covers all of "degreeing".