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Thread: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

  1. #221
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I'm just going to throw something out there, and it will prob be of No effect, as one would assume that Everyone involved in these discussions already understands it.

    Having said that, one should Never Assume! So here goes nothing............

    When referring to cam installation via "centerline instal" method.

    Recommended installed centerline = 112deg for this eg.

    The 112deg has ZERO to do with Anything regarding the Cam! It IS referring to 112deg of Crank rotation. So the Only thing relevant, to be expressed in Deg's is in reference to The CRANK

    Now, where does the Cam come in in all of this you ask? Good Q!

    With the cam installed in the motor you are going to be measuring the #1 Intake valve as it is Acted upon by the Cam lobe. So the Cam itself really has very Little to do with anything as you are actually measuring VALVE Lift, Not Cam Lift!

    In order to do this Accurately, you Need a Dial indicator.

    You Can't use a degree wheel because there is NO reference to "set" the wheel to on the Cam! (not to mention you aren't going right off the cam anyways)

    Q. Could you devise a method to make a degree wheel work for this INSTEAD of a dial indicator? (using degree wheel mounted on camshaft)

    A. For all intent and purpose, and to hold on to ones sanity............NO! There is Nothing to reference a degree wheel to, in order to be able to "use" that info to properly instal a cam at it's recommended centerline. Could someone "theoretically" measure Every aspect of the Cam, and come up with some sort of reference "Chart" that Could allow a degree wheel to be used in place of a dial indicator? Possibly, but it would take a Monumental Effort and in the end, be FAR LESS ACCURATE! (and still wouldn't need to be expressed in Deg's because Cam rotation in Deg's has No bearing on Anything!)

    This is Why a Dial Indicator is used and Not a Degree wheel! (In reference to the #1 Intake valve being acted upon by the #1 Intake lobe of the Cam)

    Now, having said all of this; Could someone Make their Own degree wheel to use on the Crank, instead of purchasing or borrowing one. YES, they Could, and it wouldn't be That hard. ( still a Lot more work than just paying the 30.00 and buying it IMHO though)

    But this would Not indicate a Different method of centerline installing the Cam. It would only be an argument that you Could make a degree wheel IF you Really wanted to

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  2. #222
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Great write up there Rob.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Yes, definitely, we want something superior to "visually align arrows at a distance"..agreed.

    Im not saying skimp on the precision, I'm referencing the stock install method because its the same thing, only when we are putting in our racing camshaft we will have to probably use a "centerline" as our alignment point instead of "arrows and bearing cap" both for precision and because who knows if the new cam design has anything to do with the key. And since almost certainly the sync point with crank TDC is not literally centerline but some amount of rotation from centerline, we'd need a cam degree wheel to get there from centerline. No loss of precision.

    List of events and minimum equipment needed to precisely locate them:

    Cam valve lift: dial indicator
    Cam lobe displacement: dial indicator
    Cam centerline: dial indicator
    Crank TDC: fixed piston stop + degree wheel/scribes, adjustable piston stop, manometer, dial indicator, others...
    Cam rotation from centerline/lift/displacement: dial indicator + cam degree wheel

    Mix that soup up and you have a few ways to sync the cam and crank to arbitrary relationships at maximum precision without a degree wheel on the crank..the only info you need on the cam card is centerline distance from TDC. And even if for some strange reason you didnt have that but had duration at lift and symmetrical lobes you could derive centerline.

    And if you can sync then you can measure so that covers all of "degreeing".
    There's only one way to install, verify, inspect and set the installed centerline of any camshaft. (seriously, my mom told me so)
    Oh and when doing so, you still use the alignment marks as described by Mopar, you're ever so slightly moving the cam in relation to the crankshaft to obtain a specific installed centerline.

    So said that, get out there and verify the installed centerline of a cam any way you please and let me know how it worked out. Once you do it, (the right way) you find it's quite easy.

    You can thank me now.

    Joey

  4. #224

    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I'm at a loss for words
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  5. #225
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    I'm just going to throw something out there, and it will prob be of No effect, as one would assume that Everyone involved in these discussions already understands it.

    Having said that, one should Never Assume! So here goes nothing............

    When referring to cam installation via "centerline instal" method.

    Recommended installed centerline = 112deg for this eg.

    The 112deg has ZERO to do with Anything regarding the Cam! It IS referring to 112deg of Crank rotation. So the Only thing relevant, to be expressed in Deg's is in reference to The CRANK

    Now, where does the Cam come in in all of this you ask? Good Q!

    With the cam installed in the motor you are going to be measuring the #1 Intake valve as it is Acted upon by the Cam lobe. So the Cam itself really has very Little to do with anything as you are actually measuring VALVE Lift, Not Cam Lift!

    In order to do this Accurately, you Need a Dial indicator.

    You Can't use a degree wheel because there is NO reference to "set" the wheel to on the Cam! (not to mention you aren't going right off the cam anyways)

    Q. Could you devise a method to make a degree wheel work for this INSTEAD of a dial indicator? (using degree wheel mounted on camshaft)

    A. For all intent and purpose, and to hold on to ones sanity............NO! There is Nothing to reference a degree wheel to, in order to be able to "use" that info to properly instal a cam at it's recommended centerline. Could someone "theoretically" measure Every aspect of the Cam, and come up with some sort of reference "Chart" that Could allow a degree wheel to be used in place of a dial indicator? Possibly, but it would take a Monumental Effort and in the end, be FAR LESS ACCURATE! (and still wouldn't need to be expressed in Deg's because Cam rotation in Deg's has No bearing on Anything!)

    This is Why a Dial Indicator is used and Not a Degree wheel! (In reference to the #1 Intake valve being acted upon by the #1 Intake lobe of the Cam)

    Now, having said all of this; Could someone Make their Own degree wheel to use on the Crank, instead of purchasing or borrowing one. YES, they Could, and it wouldn't be That hard. ( still a Lot more work than just paying the 30.00 and buying it IMHO though)

    But this would Not indicate a Different method of centerline installing the Cam. It would only be an argument that you Could make a degree wheel IF you Really wanted to
    So if I set the crank to TDC, drop the camshaft in, use a dial indicator to locate a lobe/valve centerline, and then rotate the camshaft 1/2 the degrees the cam card says to, the cam and crank wont be synchronized as intended?

  6. #226
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    I'm at a loss for words
    Oh common, this is great stuff!








  7. #227
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    lol Gaboon you are the best.

  8. #228
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Lets say the cam card specifies that the engine should be at a certain number of degrees from TDC when the cam is at centerline. I think thats what you are suggesting is the most common data available.

    So in that case, set the engine to TDC.

    Then locate the cam centerline by monitoring valve lift.

    Then precisely rotate the cam one half the degrees specified for crankshaft rotation.
    Okay, lets do it your way. There is no cam timing belt on the engine, so the engine and cam can be turned independently. We set the engine and cam as you say above.

    How and where are you measuring the valve lift? So you find max valve lift and now you need to rotate the cam. How and where are you measuring "half the degrees specified for crankshaft rotation"? And then, which way do you turn the cam?

    Oh BTW, if you don't have the timing belt on during this whole procedure, then what is to stop the cam from "snapping" to a position it wants to be in because of valve spring pressure? Do you expect it to just stay where you put it?

    Now we go to put on the belt, but when we go to slip it over the cam sprocket, the teeth on the belt do not match position of sprocket. What do we do? If you are using an adjustable sprocket, you might be able to hold the cam still while you loosen it up readjust it and then tighten it up. But what if you're using offset cam keys. You need to pull the sprocket off the cam, take a guess at which key to use, and replace the sprocket on the cam, all without moving the cam (and losing your "centerline").

    I think by now, I could have centerlined the cam using the procedure the book outlines.


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  9. #229
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman² View Post
    This catiness and backstabbing shitt has got to stop. What are we? 3? Time for everyone to grow up, I've been here for 9 years and somethings never change, how sad. Why don't we pull the knives out of said backs and just concentrate on building fast cars/vans without the drama. Bad enough we have members slamming Gary D! TD is still taking shots at TM but I haven't seen any on here for awhile, at least that's a start.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman² View Post
    Probably not, he and others still going at Chris for not having his specs handy. The point still remains, too much crap still going on. Shouldn't have said anything, not my place and its never going to stop.
    Simon,
    Show me where I am "going" after Chris in this cam or TU's cam thread. You must have me confused with someone else. If you look, you will find positive comments from me about TU's bringing new camshaft profiles to the market. I have also made positive posts recently about TU's other offerings. I have purchased parts from TU in the past and will again in the future. Ditto for the other vendors. Almost on a daily basis, I will steer people that contact me about parts to all of our vendors if I can't help them.

    I, as well as others are just looking for #'s Chris said would be provided. I am a potential multi quantity customer. Sounds like at this point, only Cam-Pro #'s are out there (not posted yet and IMO, shouldn't be because it will just add to the confusion), and that no one has yet to my knowledge degreed either one of these new cam profiles in yet. It's not that the #'s aren't handy, they don't appear to be available! That is why I have not asked Chris for #'s since speaking to him on the phone on Halloween night. Like I said repeatedly, JUST LOOKING FOR THE #'S, and not anything else.

    Seems like I struck a nerve with you Simon, hitting too close to home? Since you appear to have plenty of time to stir the pot, and trying to drag me and others through the mud, maybe you could constructively use some of this spare time to degree YOUR own s-60 roller profile cam and post up the specs once and for all. Only been offered for 6 years, specs "handy" yet (lol)? Maybe with some posted REAL specs, (and not just saying they're the same as Comp cams S-60 slider specs,) it might even lead to some sales.

    Good grief, I've degreed in bone stock camshafts knowing I'll probably never run one again, yet vendors are out there peddling camshafts they can't even to tell their potential customers much about. The only thing more bizzare is why would anyone buy one?

    Just sayin and no diggin...
    Todd

  10. #230
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by sdac guy View Post
    Okay, lets do it your way. There is no cam timing belt on the engine, so the engine and cam can be turned independently. We set the engine and cam as you say above.
    Okay.

    How and where are you measuring the valve lift?
    Dial indicator on retainer.

    So you find max valve lift and now you need to rotate the cam. How and where are you measuring "half the degrees specified for crankshaft rotation"?
    The "half the degrees" number is the cam card centerline rotation number intended for crankshaft rotation, divided by 2.

    It gets measured by our imaginary degree wheel on the camshaft.

    And then, which way do you turn the cam?
    Whichever way the rotation from crank centerline is supposed to be. Not hard to figure this out even if its not signed.

    Oh BTW, if you don't have the timing belt on during this whole procedure, then what is to stop the cam from "snapping" to a position it wants to be in because of valve spring pressure? Do you expect it to just stay where you put it?

    Now we go to put on the belt, but when we go to slip it over the cam sprocket, the teeth on the belt do not match position of sprocket. What do we do? If you are using an adjustable sprocket, you might be able to hold the cam still while you loosen it up readjust it and then tighten it up. But what if you're using offset cam keys. You need to pull the sprocket off the cam, take a guess at which key to use, and replace the sprocket on the cam, all without moving the cam (and losing your "centerline").
    None of this is specific only to the procedure I laid out. Regardless, you can adjust the cam rotation independently of the crank even with the timing belt in place using an adjustable sprocket.

    I think by now, I could have centerlined the cam using the procedure the book outlines
    Barry
    How did any of the above take any longer than any other method?

  11. #231
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    How did any of the above take any longer than any other method?
    My whole point is not to disprove that your way is not possible. It is just not practical. The book procedure lays out every single detail a person would need to know. In previous posts you make it sound like your way is as easy as 1,2,3. That is because you generalized the steps.

    So I asked you specific details regarding your procedure. There are two or three questions I asked that you didn't bother to answer, you skipped over them (like how do you keep the cam from snapping to a new position because of valve spring pressure). It must be "loose" at some point in order to adjust it.

    Then you backtracked some and said that you did have the belt on and was using an adjustable cam sprocket. Can those sprockets be adjusted 50-60 degrees (half the cam card reading)? In either direction? And when I asked which direction do you rotate the cam, you didn't give an exact answer, you replied, whichever way it is supposed to be, it's not that hard to figure out.

    Now wait a second, the book procedure never gives a direction like that, "it's not that hard to figure out".

    You can follow the book procedure and be done with it on the first try. Your procedure lacks a lot of detail and may take a few tries before it is correctly centerlined, if it ever is.

    BTW, if you mount a degree wheel on the cam, how do you set it for zero degrees? Oh yeah, you can just eyeball it, that will be close enough. And also, wouldn't you need to take the degree wheel off of the cam to loosen and tighten the bolts on the adjustable sprocket? So where does your reference go then?




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  12. #232
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post

    When referring to cam installation via "centerline instal" method.

    Recommended installed centerline = 112deg for this eg.

    The 112deg has ZERO to do with Anything regarding the Cam! It IS referring to 112deg of Crank rotation. So the Only thing relevant, to be expressed in Deg's is in reference to The CRANK )
    The installed centerline has a "bit" to do with the cam, as whatever the LSA or lobe separation angle is, they will be the "same" number.

    If you install a 112deg. LSA cam at 112 centerline it will be straight up. Any difference between the two numbers is the amount of advance or retard.

    Thanks
    Randy


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  13. #233
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Um, here ya go...


    Hope this helps to clear up this discussion a little.

  14. #234
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Well, my entire Point of that post was to "divorce" certain Elements from the conversation in an attempt to Show that what IS Critical is Matching the Cam/ intake valve With 112deg of Crank rotation.

    Since it takes Enough Patience and Attention to detail that practically No one Ever does it, Even in it's Simplest "to do" form, but even then, you may Only get within a deg or so, I Thought it might Open up some eyes.

    Now, I'm guessing this is an attempt to come up with a method of doing this while the motor is still IN the car, otherwise, why are we all wasting our time Talking about it! lol

    So for argument sake, and to bring my part in this to an end (this will be my Last post on this subject) SURE, you could do it and it would Prob get you Somewhere in the Ballpark.

    WHERE EXACTLY? You will Never Know for SURE without a Degree wheel on the Crank SHOWING you! (to many moving parts and variables to consider otherwise)

    Now, I Will agree that it would still be better than 99.9% of all others who do Nothing but drop it in

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I've done it multiple times in the car (Charger) I never found it to be very difficult.

  16. #236
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Well, my entire Point of that post was to "divorce" certain Elements from the conversation in an attempt to Show that what IS Critical is Matching the Cam/ intake valve With 112deg of Crank rotation.

    Since it takes Enough Patience and Attention to detail that practically No one Ever does it, Even in it's Simplest "to do" form, but even then, you may Only get within a deg or so, I Thought it might Open up some eyes.

    Now, I'm guessing this is an attempt to come up with a method of doing this while the motor is still IN the car, otherwise, why are we all wasting our time Talking about it! lol

    So for argument sake, and to bring my part in this to an end (this will be my Last post on this subject) SURE, you could do it and it would Prob get you Somewhere in the Ballpark.

    WHERE EXACTLY? You will Never Know for SURE without a Degree wheel on the Crank SHOWING you! (to many moving parts and variables to consider otherwise)

    Now, I Will agree that it would still be better than 99.9% of all others who do Nothing but drop it in
    My whole participation in the thread (other than posting the procedure outlined in the engine book) is to answer Acannell's "nobody has told me why it wouldn't work" (in reference to his method). His method is full of holes and dubious actions, yet he is still determined that his method would work. There is a saying that the "devil is in the details" and his method for centerlining a cam is full of devils.

    I have centerlined a cam twice (same cam, two different installs) using the 2.2/2.5 Engine book method. The first edition of the book printed in the late 80's had some errors in the procedure. I used that book on my first try about 1991. It took me some time to get it to work until I figured out the errors in the book. The latest version of the book (4th edition printed in the late 90's/early 2000's) is the version I scanned for the posting here. The procedural errors have been corrected, but some typo's remained. I corrected those before posting here.

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  17. #237
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I have or use to have a VHS tape of a Mopar tech going through the entire procedure on a 2.2L which was on a stand.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Wow! That was a Great post Bro! You have No idea what it means to know there Are individuals out there that "Get it"!

    Thanks!
    The most important thing when building an engine is to REMAIN TEACHABLE, no matter how advanced you've become.
    I feel this is what allows me to learn the best ways to do things, and always produces the best results.

    Because when all is said and done, and all the resentment has sent so many to the showers,
    RESULTS are what matter.

    Thank you Rob. I've learned a great deal from you, and you're hundreds of miles away.
    As I said above, I stay teachable,
    keep my ego in check,
    and always search for and investigate any conclusions.
    This way I know something works prior to any issues.

  19. #239
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaboon
    I have or use to have a VHS tape of a Mopar tech going through the entire procedure on a 2.2L which was on a stand.
    I got one with the "314" turbo cam I bought from MP around 1990. It was about 15 minutes long, had the engine on the stand, but didn't really explain much. I thought it was a waste of time after watching it. IIRC, the engine on the stand didn't even have the TDC lined up correctly, as the cam sprocket was installed at a pretty good angle. LOL


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  20. #240
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Wait let's back up a little here.

    What is a camshaft and where is located?

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