TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

[Shadow]

Thanks Rob, That is what I suspected, but I wanted to make sure.


As I said before, I love the MP 767 cam. It was originally listed by Mopar as a "race" cam, but it works very well on the street. It was the biggest hydraulic cam offered by Mopar, part of the reason I picked it. It seems to have a very broad power curve, and just gets better the more you rev. I've wound my 2.2 to 7K without issues. I'm sure it would go beyond that, but I really don't feel like abusing it.

Thanks again for all the info provided in this thread. It allows me to see all sides of the cam issues, and I hope it helps everybody be more informed about how to pick a cam...

We are only beginning to Scratch the surface on this topic. Hopefully we can get into the Meat of it sooonnnnnnnn...........

[acannell]

We are only beginning to Scratch the surface on this topic. Hopefully we can get into the Meat of it sooonnnnnnnn...........

speaking of which...

I may be in a position to do a back to back cam swap purely for experimental purposes.

Mechanically its no big deal, the car is not a DD and I can do the cam swap with a days notice.

Would this be meaningful or interesting? I'm getting the feeling we need some data in here to chew on, and BtB test data is pretty much zilch out there, or very rare.


The good:
BMF intake
4 core intercooler
H20 Injection
14" to 19" sorta equal length 4to1 header
Boostbutton flashable ECU installed and working
568 tranny
Fidanza adjustable cam gear
I have MPTUNE, MPSCAN, and an OTC2000, all of which I have captured data with and are ready to log
I have a dual thermocouple gauge
I have tons of sensors for differential pressure or anything else
Theres a long straight away near my house
3 bar map
I have a machine shop with lots of precision measuring instruments so I could measure anything we want to know about the cam.

The bad:
Stock swirl head (or is that a good thing for getting juicy cam data?)
I dont know how to tune cals, but at least I have the software up and running

The I dont know:
Super 46 small hybrid turbo setup from FWDP with stage 1 wheel

The optional:
I have a fwdp stage 5 cal I can swap in


So if I were to get an R5 or F4 would there be some tests I could do which would be fat juicy salty and just get all over you as far as interesting data

[turbovanman²]

Its a shame your doing all this work and using a stock head, they aren't that good in stock form. A cam will make a difference but how much, only swapping will tell.

[zin]

The bad:
Stock swirl head (or is that a good thing for getting juicy cam data?)
I dont know how to tune cals, but at least I have the software up and running.

Just my .02, but the head will flow more than the stock cam will allow, so it would be a very good test IMHO. Best of all, it will show some idea of what a person could expect without having to have a ported head.

I would be nice to know what "all the bolt-ons" would do without a ported head, as that is what most will be running.

Of course it is less than ideal, once the cam is removed as an impediment, the head is the biggest "cork" in the system, but I think this test would be pretty representative of the general populous.

One thing though, without being able to tune the cal to the new flow characteristics, the test will not show the cam/engine's full potential... But hey! Something is better than nothing!

Of course, then the next test would have to be with a nicely ported head, to show the full potential!

Mike

[acannell]

just out of curiousity, I wonder if FWDP recommends the F4 to be used with their stage 5 cal?

yeah I definitely wouldnt be able to come up with a tune for it unless someone really told me what to do, so it would be a straight swap..or if I cashed in and used up my one tune with boostbutton..but I was hoping to save that for when I had a super head

[4 l-bodies]

speaking of which...

I may be in a position to do a back to back cam swap purely for experimental purposes.

Mechanically its no big deal, the car is not a DD and I can do the cam swap with a days notice.

Would this be meaningful or interesting? I'm getting the feeling we need some data in here to chew on, and BtB test data is pretty much zilch out there, or very rare.

Asa,
The turbo you have is an excellent performer. I have bought and installed several of these exact turbos. I'm assuming it has the TO4B (FM) style housing, and .63 housing. I know for a fact, enough turbo to get a typical well thought out TM in low 12's or high 11's without huge amounts of boost. However, I personally don't think with a stage 1 turbine, you are going anywhere near 1:1 pressure differential which I would consider to be a requirement for a big camshaft with duration in the 240+° @.050 area like the S3, F4, and the new TU cams appear to be.
It would be interesting to find out what pressure differential you have currenty with your current build. info like this is always a good thing. Then it would be good info on stage II wheel with ported log, TBI header, aftermarket or fabricated tube header. Then find out the same with Stage III turbine & 60mm GT turbine. The closer you get to a 1:1 P/D, the closer the camshaft profile can mimic a NA camshaft profile. In other words, the more aggressive you can make it. Without getting that 1:1 (or close to it) you would be more successful selecting a turbo profile camshaft that have far less duration to deal with the higher exhaust pressure differential that will exist in the exhaust.
Todd

[acannell]

Asa,
The turbo you have is an excellent performer. I have bought and installed several of these exact turbos. I'm assuming it has the TO4B (FM) style housing, and .63 housing. I know for a fact, enough turbo to get a typical well thought out TM in low 12's or high 11's without huge amounts of boost. However, I personally don't think with a stage 1 turbine, you are going anywhere near 1:1 pressure differential which I would consider to be a requirement for a big camshaft with duration in the 240+° @.050 area like the S3, F4, and the new TU cams appear to be.
It would be interesting to find out what pressure differential you have currenty with your current build. info like this is always a good thing. Then it would be good info on stage II wheel with ported log, TBI header, aftermarket or fabricated tube header. Then find out the same with Stage III turbine & 60mm GT turbine. The closer you get to a 1:1 P/R, the closer the camshaft profile can mimic a NA camshaft profile. In other words, the more aggressive you can make it. Without getting that 1:1 (or close to it) you would be more sucessful selecting a turbo profile camshaft that have far less duration to deal with the higher exhaust pressure differential that will exist in the exhaust.
Todd

Its the .63 housing, but Im not completely sure what compressor cover. I tried to figure it out once but there was still doubt. It has the little angle on the outlet so it will fit up with the stock 90 airbox, if that helps. And its small.

I suppose I should start hooking up pressure sensors. I've been curious what the pressure ratio is as well for a long time.

I have an EGT bung already which I could screw a sensor into, but its right at the head on the exhaust manifold. Is that the location we'd want? I suppose it would tell us the overall exhaust pressure but we'd lose info about how much is contributed by the header, turbo/turbine, and swingvalve. But I suppose it would still be interesting!

Since I made that post I've done some work on my poor neglected Daytona:

-swapped boost button flashable chip back to FWDP stage 5 (I dont have any other non-stock cal. The boost button is flashed with stock)
-Installed H20 injection reservoir, fixed a bunch of wiring problems with H20 injection. Injection now works okay (verified spray).
-Replaced stock injectors w/ +40's
-Tightened loose turbo air inlet hose

Im going to leave the boost control to the ECU for the first test drive even though I have never had successful high boost control with the FWDP stage 5 cal. If everything looks okay I'll swap the MBC in.

I have no knock sensor hooked up. IIRC I never had a knock sensor hooked up during all my 28psi drag races and there wasnt a scratch on the engine through that. I disconnected it because this cal was doing knock retard when I was absolutely sure there was no knock (and later proved correct by all the drag racing and listening with electronic knock amp).

That was a long time ago though, and with the stock exhaust and intake manifolds, and 104+ octane booster in 1/4 tank of gas. So I'll take it easy. But I'm going to try and turn the boost up to get things rolling again. Im thinking with that huge intercooler and H20 injection the air charge wont get any warmer than ambient. I have a fast response thermocouple in the intake manifold so we shall see.

So back to the cam discussion. But my point here is that I'll try to get my platform operational at high boost so a cam swap would be interesting.

[OmniLuvr]

so, asa, what swingvalve are you using?

[acannell]

so, asa, what swingvalve are you using?

whatever is the usual biggest one before going to a 3"

add one more thing to the list: -replaced 2 bar map with 3 bar

[acannell]

SHES ALIVE!!

VIDEO CLICK HERE

[Warren Stramer]

Asa,
The turbo you have is an excellent performer. I have bought and installed several of these exact turbos. I'm assuming it has the TO4B (FM) style housing, and .63 housing. I know for a fact, enough turbo to get a typical well thought out TM in low 12's or high 11's without huge amounts of boost. However, I personally don't think with a stage 1 turbine, you are going anywhere near 1:1 pressure differential which I would consider to be a requirement for a big camshaft with duration in the 240+° @.050 area like the S3, F4, and the new TU cams appear to be.
It would be interesting to find out what pressure differential you have currenty with your current build. info like this is always a good thing. Then it would be good info on stage II wheel with ported log, TBI header, aftermarket or fabricated tube header. Then find out the same with Stage III turbine & 60mm GT turbine. The closer you get to a 1:1 P/R, the closer the camshaft profile can mimic a NA camshaft profile. In other words, the more aggressive you can make it. Without getting that 1:1 (or close to it) you would be more sucessful selecting a turbo profile camshaft that have far less duration to deal with the higher exhaust pressure differential that will exist in the exhaust.
Todd

About long duration cams and high pressure differential ratio; My experience has been counter intuitive, but verifiable no less; I have always found more power at the track with "big cam" even with high backpressure.
Back when I ran a .63 STGII with a stock 88turbo roller, and ported stock exhaust manifold, I swapped in the Taft S3 and gained 3-4 MPH.
Later I was running a .63 STGIII with same 50 trim compressor, header, and 255 duration solid roller cam(SCX605) with a measured 2:1 pressure ratio, and car gained 4-5 MORE MPH.
The only caveat is I was always able to remap the cal. at the track, and I always run them very advanced.

[acannell]

Okay test run looks good. Sorry for video where you cant see speedometer, when I run mid 20's I'll start doing instrumented/logged tests with much better everything. Did you know the passenger headrest on a 1990 dodge daytona pinches a smart phone sideways just perfect?


ANOTHER VIDEO HERE!!

Things of note in this video:

-I let the FWDP stage 5 cal control the wastegate and as usual it only got up to around 18psi. The knock sensor is not connected.
-The peak boost in the video appears to be on the second run at around 18psi.
-The far right gauge is a thermocouple gauge. The numbers appear to be fading in and out because of the camera frame rate. The top temperature is a probe an inch away from the head on the #4 exhaust primary. The bottom temperature is a probe installed in the intake manifold plenum. Both are exposed tip very fast response thermocouples.
-The peak EGT was 1455F
-Notice at the beginning of the video, the intake temperature is around 110F from sitting/heat soak, but drops significantly at WOT.
-The engine appears to have survived this minor beyond-stock excursion. The idle remains at 22mmHG, everything sounds normal, and the engine as bone dry (no dipstick ejection) and smelled "dry/clean", if you know what I mean.
-The tranny is a stock A568. I wanted to record 0-60 but I'll just do all that plus more when the boost is in the 20's
-I am not as horrible a driver as it may appear. I swear I can launch the daytona without the horrible bog, it takes me a couple tries though. Havent done this for a few months lol

That is all for now! I'll get much more data, including measuring the pressure differential, and logging data from MPSCAN, once I turn the boost up.

So the question will be, which cam should I try out? And will it mean anything with a stock head and no change in cal?

[acannell]

About long duration cams and high pressure differential ratio; My experience has been counter intuitive, but verifiable no less; I have always found more power at the track with "big cam" even with high backpressure.
Back when I ran a .63 STGII with a stock 88turbo roller, and ported stock exhaust manifold, I swapped in the Taft S3 and gained 3-4 MPH.
Later I was running a .63 STGIII with same 50 trim compressor, header, and 255 duration solid roller cam(SCX605) with a measured 2.6:1 pressure ratio, and car gained 4-5 MORE MPH.
The only caveat is I was always able to remap the cal. at the track, and I always run them very advanced.

So if we were somehow to magically reduce the pressure ratio and repeat your tests:

1) would the gains increase
2) would the gains go away
3) would things actually get worse

#1 would be consistent with what Todds saying. #2 and #3 would be puzzling.

Correct?

[BoostedDrummer]

Throwing this out there for curiosity's sake, what does the name "R5" and "F4" stand for? "R" for race and "F" for fun?

[knownenemy]

Asa, I think it's fine that your head is factory.
Lots of guys run factory heads.
Results will vary with everyone, but starting there is good.
No 2 cylinder heads will be ported the same.
So the results you get probably won't be "across the board" for everyone.
But it'll surely provide an idea of what to expect.

Remember, there are many other variables that go into finding the cam's actual influence on performance.
What you're attempting to do here is really great stuff my friend.

And BTW; LOVE the dual thermocouple gauge set-up!

[Shadow]

So if we were somehow to magically reduce the pressure ratio and repeat your tests:

1) would the gains increase
2) would the gains go away
3) would things actually get worse

#1 would be consistent with what Todds saying. #2 and #3 would be puzzling.

Correct?

I believe what Warren is saying, is that the Gains remained (for all intent and purpose) Constant. (correct me if I'm wrong Warren )

So that would Speak Directly to the Fact that the Drive pressure would still need to be even Higher in order to have a Negative effect on the Cam Profiles Performance.

So, in Simple terms, what does this mean? That you could Tighten the LSA of the cam even More with a Better Drive pressure ratio.

I was going to mention this about the F4 cam. YES, it is working Flawlessly in the Charger at a near perfect 1:1 pressure ratio, but it has a 116 LSA. So, it would prob work just as well in a set up that is only 2:1 pressure ratio because of the wide LSA. The opposite could also be considered. That the cam in the Charger could run a Tighter LSA and continue to Gain performance.

Here's an interesting read along these lines; http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...amshaft-guide/

[Warren Stramer]

So if we were somehow to magically reduce the pressure ratio and repeat your tests:

1) would the gains increase
2) would the gains go away
3) would things actually get worse

#1 would be consistent with what Todds saying. #2 and #3 would be puzzling.

Correct?

Don't misunderstand, With reduced backpressure gains would INCREASE. I'm just pointing out the fact that in my experience having high exhaust backpressure was not the power killer one might expect.
As I developed my old engine combination I just kept increasing intake side flow by incrementally improving the cyl. head, cam, intercooler, and charge piping until the old 50 trim was at choked flow. I rammed more and more air and fuel into the engine till the turbo became the only restriction.
I was amazed that the power just kept climbing long after conventional wisdom would have said otherwise.
I am NOT saying that is the way to purposely design a turbocharged system. I knew all along the little turbo would eventually have to be upgraded. My point is I learned first hand how much cam I could run before back-pressure became the problem we have been led to believe, and it is a LOT more cam than you think.

[glhs875]

Don't misunderstand, With reduced backpressure gains would INCREASE. I'm just pointing out the fact that in my experience having high exhaust backpressure was not the power killer one might expect.
As I developed my old engine combination I just kept increasing intake side flow by incrementally improving the cyl. head, cam, intercooler, and charge piping until the old 50 trim was at choked flow. I rammed more and more air and fuel into the engine till the turbo became the only restriction.
I was amazed that the power just kept climbing long after conventional wisdom would have said otherwise.
I am NOT saying that is the way to purposely design a turbocharged system. I knew all along the little turbo would eventually have to be upgraded. My point is I learned first hand how much cam I could run before back-pressure became the problem we have been led to believe, and it is a LOT more cam than you think.

Good info Warren! I have a question,do you raise the compression ratio of your combo when using larger than stock camshafts to help compensate from the lower cylinder pressures that are made at lower RPM's from the later than stock intake valve closing point?

[Warren Stramer]

Good info Warren! I have a question,do you raise the compression ratio of your combo when using larger than stock camshafts to help compensate from the lower cylinder pressures that are made at lower RPM's from the later than stock intake valve closing point?

With the previous engine combination I ran everywhere from 8.35:1- 8.78:1; The higher CR iteration had better low end torque (slightly) but a narrower tuning window (also slightly). By changing chamber volume and selecting the desired stack thickness of the MLS head gasket you can make small changes to the CR.
With the header and smallish turbo it would spool up fast either way, too fast actually, as it had too much bottom end.

The new engine is presently at 8.53:1. The newest cam I had made I narrowed the LSA 2 more degrees (112). My plan was to kill off some low end torque for traction, and push the rpm up and make the car work more on the top half of the track. I was concerned that with the bigger turbo and cam I would have trouble getting it spooled-up against the convertor as the car needs to "leave" at about 3800rpm, and at least 7-9psi boost. Turns out I am able to load the convertor to about 3300rpm with the turbo charge pipe disconnected, as in all motor.
I don't know how it would spool with a manual trans, but it takes a loose convertor to make it all work now. I run the cam advanced between 2-5 degrees, depending on conditions.

[glhs875]

With the previous engine combination I ran everywhere from 8.35:1- 8.78:1; The higher CR iteration had better low end torque (slightly) but a narrower tuning window (also slightly). By changing chamber volume and selecting the desired stack thickness of the MLS head gasket you can make small changes to the CR.
With the header and smallish turbo it would spool up fast either way, too fast actually, as it had too much bottom end.

The new engine is presently at 8.53:1. The newest cam I had made I narrowed the LSA 2 more degrees (112). My plan was to kill off some low end torque for traction, and push the rpm up and make the car work more on the top half of the track. I was concerned that with the bigger turbo and cam I would have trouble getting it spooled-up against the convertor as the car needs to "leave" at about 3800rpm, and at least 7-9psi boost. Turns out I am able to load the convertor to about 3300rpm with the turbo charge pipe disconnected, as in all motor.
I don't know how it would spool with a manual trans, but it takes a loose convertor to make it all work now. I run the cam advanced between 2-5 degrees, depending on conditions.

Again, very good info!!! Thanks for sharing!