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Thread: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

  1. #1
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    Exclamation TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    oh jeez Chris..now I have to figure out if I should get this instead of an F4....and I have no idea how to figure that out..helppppp...why do I know so little about CAMS???? arghhh

    man $250 what a DEAL!

    maybe you could talk a little about how you came up with this new R5 design? aww itll probably be sold out before I get anything figured out anyways
    Don't want to make this post sound like a downer, but is there Any more info on this cam? Any track or dyno tests? Asa, you are correct in the assumption that there is No way for you to know if this cam would work better than the F4 or really work well at all. There simply is not enough info.

    Chris, can you post the LSA? Seat to Seat duration? Is this "symmetrical", or "A symmetrical"? Is the 113.5 the recommended installed centerline?

    This would really be Minimal info to have Any idea of how this cam will perform.

    This is why you really need a cam card.

    So for now, the F4 is the Proven performer (info or no) and that is what I would base my selection on.

    Hopefully someone can do a legitimate comparo Or at least some kind of BtB comparo to Prove this cam, who knows, it Could be Dabomb!

  2. #2
    Heroes never die, they just reload! Turbo Mopar Staff Frank's Avatar
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    Re: New TU Camshafts Now Shipping! Introductory Price!!

    Shadow,
    I think that is Chris' question to answer. Not sure you can say proven for anyone but you or an exact duplication of your engine, car, and calibration. Things like weight, fuel, altitude, temperature all play vital roles. You have found something proven that works for you. To try and poo-poo on someone else's emerging product is inconsiderate. Give Chris some time to get specs posted and it tested. Lets keep this thread about Chris selling and answering questions asked to him. If you want, I can move your post to the tech forum for further discussion, debate, or even some test results.

    Thanks,
    Frank
    Frank Katzenberger
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    Re: New TU Camshafts Now Shipping! Introductory Price!!

    Sorry Frank, really wasn't trying to Poo Poo on anything, just stating Absolute Facts. The F4 has worked for Every Single person who has used it AFAIK. So you can delete this after reading as well. I believe Chris said he was going to post all specs and what he posted really doesn't tell much. I was actually posting to get him to do what no one seems to know or want to do, post Proper cam info.

    Again, sorry this forum is at a level where no open discussion is tolerated, the Q's I asked were absolutely legit and were in no way meant as a slam but to allow More info to get out and IF enough info came out, I may have been able to tell what this cam would/ wouldn't do before even running it But I understand your decision making process and in no way want to stand in the way of new products being released

    So please delete and carry on and I will Not post in this section ever again

  4. #4
    Heroes never die, they just reload! Turbo Mopar Staff Frank's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Shadow,
    Open discussion is tolerated. The vendor sections operate by a different rule set that may not be obvious. They are for vendor announcements, vendor Q&A, and a place for the vendor to operate within since they pay for it. It is ok that you asked for more detailed specs. I have no problem with that, however it is clear that you are not a potential buyer of that cam and as such it is basically just stirring the pot by mentioning the F4. It is a valid comparison test and I look forward to seeing more results that Chris has promised to release, that thread just wasn't the place.

    I do think your car would be a perfect test bed for it.

    V/R,
    Frank
    Frank Katzenberger
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    From what Chris says about someone testing it in the very near future with a BMFI and a TU header, that should be interesting data for several BMF intake customers who also have a TU header.

    The only data so far for the BMFI is from my car and my car is pretty much useless for anything but fitment testing. It has a ridiculous equal length header with 14" primaries and the BMF prototype, and a huge intercooler and H20 injection, but it also has 2.5" SV, bone stock head and valvetrain, and a totally untuned stage 5 FWDP cal (actually the stock cal is in there right now lol).

    But the time will come when I fix all that, and a cam I will definitely need. And I dont think I'm alone in that regard. I dont know what the BMFI customers are planning on as far as a cam, but I would imagine an F4 and/or R5 are on the radar.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    This has my interest peaked now. Currently I'm running the F4 cam in mine, and acannell's big intake is in the future for the Omni. Realistically, I'm looking for the most horsepower, so if coupled with the new setup I'm planning to run combining the big intake, Megasquirt, holset, and E85; the prospect of a new cam could be promising if it unlocks a few more ponies

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I have its older brother, r2+ cam (new grind from 2012) in my GLHS and I love it.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    Shadow,
    Open discussion is tolerated. The vendor sections operate by a different rule set that may not be obvious. They are for vendor announcements, vendor Q&A, and a place for the vendor to operate within since they pay for it. It is ok that you asked for more detailed specs. I have no problem with that, however it is clear that you are not a potential buyer of that cam and as such it is basically just stirring the pot by mentioning the F4. It is a valid comparison test and I look forward to seeing more results that Chris has promised to release, that thread just wasn't the place.

    I do think your car would be a perfect test bed for it.

    V/R,
    Frank
    Fare enough, although I've never quite understood the "negative" surrounding informative questioning when it comes to parts being developed. (don't worry, this is Not the first forum that has taken my Q's in the vendor section negatively)

    Not sure why you would think I'm Not a potential buyer? IF that cam had the Right specs and I could clearly see that it Would out perform the F4, I would Obviously want one.....No?

    Now I have to admit, the opening description is deceiving all by itself, because we all Know that you Can't move the powerband up in the rpm range for Great top end power Without sacrificing low end performance. So that kind of throws a "curveball" into thing right off the hop.

    Either the cam was profiled for Great top end gains and it will lose some low end power, or it's a "compromise" and will make some gains up top, but minimal at best because it is profiled to still perform down low.

    This is why I asked for the info that I did. I would be able to tell what it is IF I had all the specs. For all I know, Chris may have just worded his description Wrong and really meant to say something like "profiled to breath higher in the rpm range without losing a Lot of low end power. (you will lose some below 3500rpm) but loses should be fairly minimal when compared to top end gains".

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post

    I do think your car would be a perfect test bed for it.

    V/R,
    Frank
    Agreed, and therein lies the problem. From the beginning there was enough power coming out of our 8v platform that cams kind of took a "back seat". Then someone made a statement about high boost and valve overlap and everyone (including myself) pictured this in their heads and the stock cams became the go to and "good enough" piece.

    I Struggled to find any real info on cams for Years and in total frustration. No one, and I Mean No One did what I would consider Proper BtB testing, so all results left you going "WTH was that?". Why didn't you X, and then Y, which would = Z?

    Enter Warren Stramer; He was the First one I found that Knew how to "dial in" a cam and understood that, Of Course you're going to Change the fueling requirements for each cam tested! Duh, how else are you going to see what the difference is! lol

    Anyway, I Still was apprehensive, seeing Warren's testing was done Below 30psi and I was running more than 30psi and that old adage came right into play....Again, and scared me off from trying it for another few years. But Warren was persistent, he all but Guaranteed I would gain 30+WHP with Increased PB.

    Now let's not forget the ported stock exhaust mani. I was also thinking my drive pressure was somewhere in the 2-2.5 : 1 range vs intake, so I Was worried that a cam Could Hurt my build and give little to No gain because of the added drive pressure.

    This is why I pressure tapped my exhaust mani first, to see IF there was room to breath! lol Man, what a Shock that was! Almost 1:1, so in went the cam, same day, No other change, didn't even change the cam timing. (left it right where it was with the stocker) Just added a bunch of fuel up top because I was too lean to run above 5000rpm when I first put it in.

    The rest is History, as I went to the track and proceeded to trap a consistent 3 mph Higher than ever before and on 3-4psi LESS boost! (on a Now slipping clutch no less!)

    So, in the end I was able to Absolutely VERIFY what Warren had been trying to tell the community for Years! And at Any boost level! (I have now run 39psi with nothing but constant Gains as I increase boost)

    After Two Highly reputable individuals had gone to such lengths, you'd think that people would get a clue. Took a few more years of Me spouting off, but 5-6 years after what should have been a "Holy cow" moment in our community, individuals are finally starting to Listen

    So here's the rub; Outside of myself, there are only two or three others that I would even trust to do a Proper test on something like this. I didn't see any of them pick up this cam

    Problem #1. You Need to have a Perfectly tuned and running powertrain to even be considered. That just eliminated 95% of the community right there!

    Problem #2. You need to be able to keep all other parameters equal. Almost no one else seems to be able to do this. Change ONE thing and see the difference and Stick with it till you get the result.

    Problem #3. Honesty! Almost everyone is EGO driven So much so that IF they get some ridiculous gain from their set-up Not being right on the dyno, then they correct the problem, they Will believe that they just gained 150WHP from a cam swap! lol Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are Purposefully doing it! BUT PEOPLE! You Have to be able to OPEN your EYES and see the Truth! IF something Doesn't make sense, it most likely ISN'T right. Gotta be able to put EGO aside and SEE what is really going on or people like myself will Never give your opinion the time of day. (hope people can read the truth in this and not Just be offended!)

    So ya, "In time" it will be proven...........sounds like another 10 years minimum to me

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    i think what needs to happen is chris donate a cam to the cause (ship one to rob and allow rob to install it and run it in his car) then we as a whole community would have real world results at a fraction of the time and above all else honest real world results, i personally dont know rob, but i have had some dealings with him (all positive) and read everything that he talks about and have never found him to be misleading in anyway, if the new cam is better, he will say it is, if it isnt, he will say so as well. this is really the only way i see to solve this debate, also i'm not saying that rob gets the cam for free, he should have to pay for it should he want one in the end (which would cover chris for the potenial loss of that cam)

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    Heroes never die, they just reload! Turbo Mopar Staff Frank's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Shadow,
    Here is a different perspective. I agree with you 100% on the technical aspects above. I also agree BtB tests are rare for the reasons you listed. Where our hurdles are may not be centered around ego but around the fact that this is a small group of performance oriented, aging, cheap cars.

    As such, vendor A and vendor B don't get along and fight for what is a limited market. Most places our vendors can go to have these built require a minimum order. They do not have the capital to purchase 10 cams and have them tested with no return on that investment because they are unlikely to be able to distribute the costs over 500 cams.

    So ask your question to Chris in his thread, but don't expect him to accept you mentioning a competitive vendor's product in it and down playing his product before it has been tested to your liking. Do I want to see it tested? Yes. However sometimes the paper design has to suffice, just like many cams for our cars before this one.
    Frank Katzenberger
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    We don't know much about the F4. Rob did you get a cam card with your F4? Whats the LSA of the F4?

    The more difficult thing is we don't know the duration specs of the F4 at .050'' lift. Every other cam manufacturer gives specs at .050, but for some reason FWD only lists .006 specs which no one else uses so there's no way to compare if Chris gave the specs out anyway.

    While it's true that FWD might not say so it doesn't get duplicated, but if that's the case you can't really call Chris out for doing the same. Chris is actually being less secretive, as soon as someone gets the cam card I'm sure the full specs will be posted.....and I'm sure Chris knows that as well.

    I will be testing out the R5 soon, but only against a stock cam for now. In time hopefully I will acquire an F4 and be able to fully dyno test both.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by onerippinturbo2 View Post
    i think what needs to happen is chris donate a cam to the cause (ship one to rob and allow rob to install it and run it in his car) then we as a whole community would have real world results at a fraction of the time and above all else honest real world results, i personally dont know rob, but i have had some dealings with him (all positive) and read everything that he talks about and have never found him to be misleading in anyway, if the new cam is better, he will say it is, if it isnt, he will say so as well. this is really the only way i see to solve this debate, also i'm not saying that rob gets the cam for free, he should have to pay for it should he want one in the end (which would cover chris for the potenial loss of that cam)
    First off, as much as I appreciate the words and comments and agree with what you're saying, I would have to Remove myself from the equation because of the simple Fact that many know I run the F4 and IF the R5 proved less gain, I could really see people on the TU side of things crying foul.

    So agree with what you're saying, but someone else would have to do the testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    Shadow,
    Here is a different perspective. I agree with you 100% on the technical aspects above. I also agree BtB tests are rare for the reasons you listed. Where our hurdles are may not be centered around ego but around the fact that this is a small group of performance oriented, aging, cheap cars.

    As such, vendor A and vendor B don't get along and fight for what is a limited market. Most places our vendors can go to have these built require a minimum order. They do not have the capital to purchase 10 cams and have them tested with no return on that investment because they are unlikely to be able to distribute the costs over 500 cams.

    So ask your question to Chris in his thread, but don't expect him to accept you mentioning a competitive vendor's product in it and down playing his product before it has been tested to your liking. Do I want to see it tested? Yes. However sometimes the paper design has to suffice, just like many cams for our cars before this one.
    Funny, the Only reason I brought up the F4 was in response to acannell's post (which was about the F4), but I see your point, and point taken.

    When I say "ego" I say it with the understanding that we ALL have them, including myself. (just part of the Human condition) Most though, are unaware of when their Ego is in play and think it's just themselves, so nothing to change or notice. This shows itself every time someone dyno's a high #, then goes to the track and the car mph's like it has 150 Less WHP. I feel Bad for them, because the Simple Truth is, The Dyno was WRONG, but their Ego's will Not accept this, so they struggle on, never going any faster and always believing that the Dyno was Right, just can't explain why the car is slow.

    It is for this reason I will never trust a dyno # alone, specially when it comes to testing/ Proving a performance piece. As a Good friend of mine once said on this very site; "Dyno's are only as good as the operator behind them, the track is the real Lie detector!"

    Real World results! FTW

    Having said that, IF you Know what you're doing, you can get good BtB dyno info doing the testing on the same dyno, same day. At that point the Total #'s are meaningless, just the amount Gained.

    Quote Originally Posted by moparzrule View Post
    We don't know much about the F4. Rob did you get a cam card with your F4? Whats the LSA of the F4?

    The more difficult thing is we don't know the duration specs of the F4 at .050'' lift. Every other cam manufacturer gives specs at .050, but for some reason FWD only lists .006 specs which no one else uses so there's no way to compare if Chris gave the specs out anyway.

    While it's true that FWD might not say so it doesn't get duplicated, but if that's the case you can't really call Chris out for doing the same. Chris is actually being less secretive, as soon as someone gets the cam card I'm sure the full specs will be posted.....and I'm sure Chris knows that as well.

    I will be testing out the R5 soon, but only against a stock cam for now. In time hopefully I will acquire an F4 and be able to fully dyno test both.
    LSA of the F4 is 116 AFAIK. I thought someone had an F4 on the cam doctor? Didn't anything Good come out of that thread? (where everyone was sending in their cams to be checked?)

    I was calling Chris out because I had previously read that he was going to give All the specs. (I think he told Todd that?) But whatever, if you are able to do some testing, Maybe we found our guinea pig right here!

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    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    LSA of the F4 is 116 AFAIK. I thought someone had an F4 on the cam doctor? Didn't anything Good come out of that thread? (where everyone was sending in their cams to be checked?)

    I was calling Chris out because I had previously read that he was going to give All the specs. (I think he told Todd that?) But whatever, if you are able to do some testing, Maybe we found our guinea pig right here!
    I read that thread and I never saw anywhere the actual info was posted...maybe I'm blind? But I don't see it. I would definitely like to know, because as far as I know we know very little about the F4 to even compare them anyway. But like you said, real world results are where it's at, taking them to a dyno is just more of a curiosity for me.

    I will have the cam in time to take it to the strip on the 15th, so I should atleast get some testing done there. After just getting my intercooler installed yesterday, I can finally start actually tuning my cal now.

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by moparzrule View Post
    I read that thread and I never saw anywhere the actual info was posted...maybe I'm blind? But I don't see it. I would definitely like to know, because as far as I know we know very little about the F4 to even compare them anyway. But like you said, real world results are where it's at, taking them to a dyno is just more of a curiosity for me.

    I will have the cam in time to take it to the strip on the 15th, so I should atleast get some testing done there. After just getting my intercooler installed yesterday, I can finally start actually tuning my cal now.
    uhh.. I would like to make sure I do not miss whatever goes on with your build..is your car in a project thread or something? sorry if I've already asked..

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I agree with Rob 100% on it. The way I see it, no one should give a ---- cc what beef the vendors have with each other. In the real world, a vendor works for US, because without US, they wouldn't have a place to sell their parts. Its a two way street, I get that. But to say that asking about performance against another vendors product is a bad thing, is flawed in my book. The way Chris should handle it is to try and get more info out on his product, and prove that he has the best over everyone else. Will it work best for everyone? Unlikely. But to say its bad to ask how it performs over another product, and get "in trouble" for it, isnt right. I dont know how everyone else operates here, but I for one should NOT have to find all the specs and answers to the questions I have by myself. I dont drop good money on parts based on a whim and a "looks good to me" attitude. I think Rob is right, totally right. Being vague about a product after its release isonly going to hurt his sales. No one else's. So if he can produce a better product than his "rival" then that should push her/them to make something better. I think Chris' thread was the perfect place for it, its the best spot to lay it all out, and throw the perverbial cards on the table.

  17. #17
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Chris has already posted more info about the R5 than we know about the F4....I don't really see how he's being ''vague''. People bought the F4 with the same or less info, so I don't really get your post.

  18. #18
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Seems like a couple people need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid and start smelling the coffee around here. Rob wants FACTS? Here's one- Shadow has no intentions of ever purchasing anything from TU. His motive here is purely to stir the pot so potential customers waiting for his coveted F4 cams to finally be produced don't drop off and buy ours instead. Without ever having tried our R5 camshaft Rob’s absolutely sure it's not as good as the F4. You would think he was getting royalty checks or something. Or maybe just a free cam... hmmmmm. Oh, so that's how it works Wondering if he would have done the same for us back when he wanted us to GIVE him one of our Stage IV clutches to test.

    We all know which vendor he leans towards. His opinions are so obviously biased. Remember, Rob never pushed FWD for LSA info but he is relentlessly pressing us for it. If he really felt the LSA was so important he could just measure it himself. All you need is the F4 cam he has, a degree wheel and dial indicator. But when Matt asked him he responded with “LSA of the F4 is 116 AFAIK”. As far as he knows??? So, the exact LSA suddenly isn't that important with the F4 to him but it is regarding our R5. Rob wants everyone to think he is so in tune with detail, but, did you notice that he has never once said anything about FWD's Billet F-4 camshaft not really being “Billet”? Last time I saw a NEW "Billet" F4 it was obviously cast which might explain the fuzzy picture on the site. Advertising it as top of the line "Billet" is false advertising and worthy of more critique than Rob is subjecting us to for not having the LSA available yet.

    We should have the LSA info by next week, but, with 14 cams out the door already it doesn't seem to be that important to the buying public. No one ever asked about the LSA on our R2+ cams and we sold a bunch of them too. And, please be sure to thank Rob for his slanted efforts. Because of him we have decided to reduce the price of the R5 to $295. until we can get LSA info out to the camshaft owners.

    As Frank already stated, not everyone's goals are the same and having more choices out there is never a bad thing for this tiny community. New products will always prove themselves over time as different combinations of parts are continually tested until the ideal set up is found for each individual person. A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi. We need to keep an open mind about ALL options otherwise it will only limit this community's ability to grow.


    Have a Great Day!

    Chris-TU
    Chris Wright www.TurbosUnleashed.com Chris@TurbosUnleashed.com 602-76-BOOST Tech/Sales#: Monday-Saturday 9AM-7PM MST Proudly Serving the Turbo-Mopar Community since 1997 TU is a performance, not marketing company. We provide accurate performance data on all our performance products. Fabricating data to make us appear better is just not our style. Do the research before you buy. ROCK BOTTOM PRICES WITHOUT THE HIDDEN HANDLING FEES.... -----HOME OF THE 9 SECOND FWD T-M CLUTCH-----

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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by moparzrule View Post
    Chris has already posted more info about the R5 than we know about the F4....I don't really see how he's being ''vague''. People bought the F4 with the same or less info, so I don't really get your post.
    Yes and no. Yes, the info (specs) on the F4 are Not as crystal clear as they should be by now. (Agreed) But NO, people bought the F4 with Way more info that what is out on the R5, let me explain;

    FWD Performance is a Performance First vendor, then a "sales person" second vendor, while TU is simply a "sales person" vendor. How do I Know this? Because specs or no specs, FWD provides individuals in the community, samples of their product to PROVE that they work!

    So, even though the specs aren't out there, what was the first thing Cindy did when she got the F4 cam? You guessed it, she gave one to Warren to "test", and he did Exactly that! BtB, at the track, same day testing on his Proven consistent (at the time) 10 sec Laser.

    I believe this was Way more important to FWD than any specs on a piece of paper that only a handful in the community (at that time) could even begin to understand.

    Funny thing is, very few paid attention to Warren's post about all of the cams he tested and it kind of slipped under the rug.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Seems like a couple people need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid and start smelling the coffee around here. Rob wants FACTS? Here's one- Shadow has no intentions of ever purchasing anything from TU. His motive here is purely to stir the pot so potential customers waiting for his coveted F4 cams to finally be produced don't drop off and buy ours instead. Without ever having tried our R5 camshaft Rob’s absolutely sure it's not as good as the F4. You would think he was getting royalty checks or something. Or maybe just a free cam... hmmmmm. Oh, so that's how it works Wondering if he would have done the same for us back when he wanted us to GIVE him one of our Stage IV clutches to test.

    We all know which vendor he leans towards. His opinions are so obviously biased. Remember, Rob never pushed FWD for LSA info but he is relentlessly pressing us for it. If he really felt the LSA was so important he could just measure it himself. All you need is the F4 cam he has, a degree wheel and dial indicator. But when Matt asked him he responded with “LSA of the F4 is 116 AFAIK”. As far as he knows??? So, the exact LSA suddenly isn't that important with the F4 to him but it is regarding our R5. Rob wants everyone to think he is so in tune with detail, but, did you notice that he has never once said anything about FWD's Billet F-4 camshaft not really being “Billet”? Last time I saw a NEW "Billet" F4 it was obviously cast which might explain the fuzzy picture on the site. Advertising it as top of the line "Billet" is false advertising and worthy of more critique than Rob is subjecting us to for not having the LSA available yet.

    We should have the LSA info by next week, but, with 14 cams out the door already it doesn't seem to be that important to the buying public. No one ever asked about the LSA on our R2+ cams and we sold a bunch of them too. And, please be sure to thank Rob for his slanted efforts. Because of him we have decided to reduce the price of the R5 to $295. until we can get LSA info out to the camshaft owners.

    As Frank already stated, not everyone's goals are the same and having more choices out there is never a bad thing for this tiny community. New products will always prove themselves over time as different combinations of parts are continually tested until the ideal set up is found for each individual person. A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi. We need to keep an open mind about ALL options otherwise it will only limit this community's ability to grow.


    Have a Great Day!

    Chris-TU
    As much as your post isn't really worth addressing (because you've posted Zero good info) I will at least say this; You Are consistent! lol

    You never understood my motivation when I was looking to develope a GREAT single disk clutch for our community, and you Obviously Can't see my motivation in this either. Again, EGO, just as I stated earlier gets in the way. You have Absolutely Blinded yourself from seeing the Truth, so you just see what you want to see, and come out with a Personal Defence tactic, rather than a reasonable discussion/ debate.

    Scorpion and the frog my friend. (although I had Hoped something in you could have changed by now)

    I have 1 purpose, and 1 motivation being on these forums, to give the BEST advise and INFO I can to HELP other go faster.........PERIOD! Those who Know me, Know this to be true.

    I'm Sorry you're still sore about the clutch issue. Myself, I Don't keep record of things like that and I don't hold grudges, as they only serve to Blind you in future circumstances as they have YOU right here and right now.

    Interesting you brought this back up at this time, as History has shown, I was Correct Not to be involved with you then (your attitude is what lit the Warning lights back then) and your attitude has Not changed. You Sir, are a Salesman......Nothing else. Rather than see the Good I was trying to do, you only saw the $'s you thought I was trying to save, thinking I was asking for something FREE, when I was only asking for a Guarantee. Again, you Blinded yourself to the Truth by your own Greed and EGO. So Cindy stepped in and did More than you could have done and supplied me with the parts to test and Now there is a PROVEN single disc clutch capable of 9's for our cars!

    Funny that Cindy Knew what my motivation was and You Didn't. A Very Poor judge of character you are............

    All the while I Never once said anything Negative about your clutch, just questioned it's capabilities of being able to hold the kind of Power I would be making, because it Didn't look right to me on paper, and I was Right! IF I would have run your clutch I would have had to replace it by now, which is what Reeves will have to do, because it's Not made to handle this much power and driving (traction) conditions.

    So no surprise that you didn't see that I was trying to HELP you on your cam thread, Not hurt you. I thought just Maybe, that you could start something good for the community by being the first one to come out with a proper spec sheet on a cam......in this I was Wrong. I never stopped to think that you still harboured Ill Will from what happened with the clutch way back then and the simple Fact that I have never bought a single item from you.

    You think this has to do with which vendor I "lean towards" or support, the simple Truth is, You have never offered anything that I believed would help me go faster...............

  20. #20
    turbo addict
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post

    We should have the LSA info by next week, but, with 14 cams out the door already it doesn't seem to be that important to the buying public. No one ever asked about the LSA on our R2+ cams and we sold a bunch of them too. And, please be sure to thank Rob for his slanted efforts. Because of him we have decided to reduce the price of the R5 to $295. until we can get LSA info out to the camshaft owners.



    Have a Great Day!

    Chris-TU
    This absolutely Proves my point, you Don't even Care about good info Or performance, just the fact that you sold some stuff and made your $'s. You almost seem elated that you did this Without having to Prove Anything. (that hand never leaves your back, does it!)

    So, if all my efforts have done is Guilt you into a savings of 55.00 for those who choose to take a chance with this cam, so be it!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post

    As Frank already stated, not everyone's goals are the same and having more choices out there is never a bad thing for this tiny community. New products will always prove themselves over time as different combinations of parts are continually tested until the ideal set up is found for each individual person. A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi. We need to keep an open mind about ALL options otherwise it will only limit this community's ability to grow.


    Have a Great Day!

    Chris-TU
    This statement shows you know absolutely Nothing about cams or performance PERIOD! Boost, on the intake side has ZERO to do with cam selection!!!!!!!!!!

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