TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

[4 l-bodies]

Were you previous results at the valve also? Just not sure if we need to compare .050 specs or .087 specs. If we compare .087 than the R5 has 6 degrees less duration on intake and exhaust but if we compare .050 than the R5 has 14 degrees more. The first one seems more likely, but just want to make sure. Either way we know the R5 has .020 more lift.

Matt,
As previously stated, I was provided the specs for the F4 cam from Cindy or James @ FWDP. I never have had the opportunity to degree a F4 camshaft in. At the time they were given to me, I assumed the specs given were at the valve, as it wasn't specified. Without given that info, and looking at it on paper only, I elected not to purchase one because at the time it seemed to be WAY smaller than what I was looking for. Warren was provided the same specs as I posted. Warren, having ran a F4, reasoned that the specs posted must have been at the lobe, because he knew it had more duration at .050 than what was posted. So it is assumed at this point until we can get a F4 cam degreed at the valve, that the specs posted for the F4 @ .050, in reality would be @ .087 at the valve. We are waiting for F4 specs at the valve to be posted so we can have an apples to apples comparison.
What we appear to know for sure is the R5 has +.020 lift on intake, and +.034 lift on exhaust over the F4's posted specs. and that it has a smaller LSA than the F4. It does appear that the R5 could have a bit less duration as you stated, but I would like to see those specs at the valve before declaring that as fact.
Todd

[moparzrule]

My bad, I fail at reading, I thought they were your specs you measured. Was a bit tired last night.

[Shadow]

I Know everyone is waiting on Me, but you're just going to have to be Patient. I Will get it done. I can't explain just how much I have going on right now and I really need "quiet time" to get this done.

Still hoping for some time this year though! lol

[4 l-bodies]

I Know everyone is waiting on Me, but you're just going to have to be Patient. I Will get it done. I can't explain just how much I have going on right now and I really need "quiet time" to get this done.

Still hoping for some time this year though! lol

Rob, Yep bad time for just about everyone this time of year. No worries, we're making progress.

[acannell]

a little cam comparison entertainment

Warren I used 112 cam degrees LSA and 110.75 intake centerline for this chart, and assumes 1.75 follower ratio. Does this look right?

This only uses 6 datapoints to plot the curves so the curve shape may not be accurate. It uses:

LSA
.050 valve lift converted to lobe lift
peak/gross valve lift
centerline


ENORMOUS

EDIT: looking at the pics of your cams in a previous post its pretty clear that these curves do not follow the same shape as the lobe. I think you have MUCH steeper opening/closing than are shown in the chart.

SECOND EDIT: deleted chart so people dont confuse the sinusoidal shape with the actual lobe profile of Warrens cam. If Warren releases more detailed data I'll replot and post back up.

[bakes]

Is it me or is the ramp open and close speed look the same on warren to the r5
What i dream of is full drag cam ( not for continual operation ) with the same opening and closing starts and ends but with the steepest ramps are poor little rollers can take . Hoping to get a table top look to the profile

[acannell]

Is it me or is the ramp open and close speed look the same on warren to the r5
What i dream of is full drag cam ( not for continual operation ) with the same opening and closing starts and ends but with the steepest ramps are poor little rollers can take . Hoping to get a table top look to the profile

like I said I dont think those curves in the plot I made represent Warrens actual lobe profiles..they are just the way excel is connecting the dots. There are only 3 data points per curve.

[black86glhs]

like I said I dont think those curves in the plot I made represent Warrens actual lobe profiles..they are just the way excel is connecting the dots. There are only 3 data points per curve.

Nevermind. I can see what this thread has done to people. Forget I said anything.

[acannell]

Very good point. I have had a hell of a time trying to get plots in word or excel to look like the data. I know that sounds odd, but they often don't match up. They aren't engineering tools, just a spreadsheet and word processor.

The curves dont match the real lobe profile because there isn't enough data. Excel certainly is an engineering tool and has very powerful mathematics and data processing functions second only to specific math toolsets like matlab or mathcad. The reason the curve is sinusoidal is because there are three data points and I asked excel to fit them with a curve. Theres really no best way to fit them, any method will be very wrong on Warrens cam which looks to have a very steep and asymmetric profile. There just isnt enough data to make the curve look like the real lobe. Im deleting that chart since people are just going to get confused. If Warren releases more data points then I'll plot it on there and put it back up.

[Chris W]

UPDATE- As we patiently wait for F4 information to be measured and posted so all can compare, here's a little history on our new camshafts and an answer to a very important question.

The R4 and R5 camshafts arrived at our facility in August '14. We did not want to be hasty in bringing them to the market. The Rockwell hardness was first calculated and compared to a seasoned factory roller camshaft. The profiles were measured on two different camshaft analyzers to make sure they were what the manufacturer said they would be. Since Moparzrule was completing the first BtB test the analyzer results were provided to him before the R5 was released to the public. The Cam Doctor information was posted on T-M a few weeks after product release. Because there was still important information lacking we provided the camshafts to Todd Nelson who was able to degree them on December 13th.

At this time the R5 information released to the public far exceeds what any spec card will tell you and far more then any cam currently being sold in this market.

Our introductory discount pricing was our way of compensating the customers for not having all the cam specs available at the time of release. It was also our way of compensating the many customers who were patiently waiting for us to release our performance camshaft. Current discounting will continue until F4 specs are made available so customers can compare.

Good work, sir. Is the cam grinder Colt by any chance? The irony would be almost too much to handle.

We purchased our original camshafts directly from TAFT who approached us in 2008. When demand decreased we discontinued selling camshafts in 2011. We have come to find out that TAFT did use Colt. Based on what our new camshaft manufacturer stated, the R5 is essentially a R2+ on steroids. This was confirmed by Todd when he degreed the R5 and compared it with information he already had on the R2+.

Our new R4+ camshaft was recently degreed courtesy of Todd Nelson. We will be releasing it to the public in the next few weeks. All specs will be posted once it becomes available on our website.

Happy New Year!

Chris-TU

P.S.- We do still have a limited few R2+ Camshafts in stock and they have been added to our site. First come, first serve.

[acannell]

Great info Chris!

Any chance we can know why the cams were designed the way they were and what reasoning went into them?

[Chris W]

Great info Chris!

Any chance we can know why the cams were designed the way they were and what reasoning went into them?

That's a question you would have to direct towards TAFT and Colt since they were the original architects of the camshaft. From what I know TAFT is no longer in the business.

Chris-TU

[4 l-bodies]

Okay I got a chance to degree in a FWDP F4 camshaft. Here are the numbers. Once again attachments are the same; one is old MS word, the other is PDF format. This was done on same engine same everything as other camshafts I have posted #'s on. LMK if you have any questions.
Todd

[acannell]

Okay I got a chance to degree in a FWDP F4 camshaft. Here are the numbers. Once again attachments are the same; one is old MS word, the other is PDF format. This was done on same engine same everything as other camshafts I have posted #'s on. LMK if you have any questions.
Todd

Terrific work Todd! You should be getting paid to do this

Is there any chance you could take a few more datapoints on the F4? Its hard to tell whats going on with it especially during exhaust opening. It opens earlier than the R5 but closes at the same time, suggesting it may have quite a bit more area of open time depending on what the details of its opening slope area. Turbo2point took a few more datapoints of the R5 and it really helps see the curve.

[moparzrule]

Here's the R5 specs that Todd did awhile back so others don't have to search.

Asa you should use these specs to compare not turbo2point2's, both measurings from the same source is more accurate.

[bakes]

Hmmm liking the profile look of the R5 cam

[acannell]

Here's the R5 specs that Todd did awhile back so others don't have to search.

Asa you should use these specs to compare not turbo2point2's, both measurings from the same source is more accurate.

I agree. But there arent as many data points on the steep part of the lobe on 4L bodies data, it makes it hard to actually compare the profiles.

[acannell]

okay heres 4LBodies data only, R5 vs F4..there just isnt much of the steep part of the lobe

[4 l-bodies]

I agree. But there arent as many data points on the steep part of the lobe on 4L bodies data, it makes it hard to actually compare the profiles.

Okay guys I was giving you the condensed version (lol). Here is the whole enchilada of both the R5 and the F4 all the way through .450 lift. Lots of measuring! Didn't take you guys long looking for more info. Hehe. LMK if you guys can't open MS word. I can resend in PDF format.
Todd

[moparzrule]

pdf please.