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Thread: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

  1. #381
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    My goodness I guess I never really read my own post before I hit submit. I really do know how to spell software. Worked a long time in the sportswear industry, can anyone tell? Good grief! Thanks to all for not throwing me under the spell check bus (lol)!
    Todd

  2. #382
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion


  3. #383
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Once our camshafts were received in early August we immediately had them sent out and tested for profile accuracy. I spoke with Todd about that at the time and he made a few helpful suggestions. We provided Matt with those specs and gave him permission to post them in this thread. We then sent our cams out to a different company to verify Rockwell hardness making sure they would not prematurely wear. In order to be absolutely sure of the specs, we put them through a second profile test to compare with the first. We did this because we have found information released from the vendor is not always 100% accurate. Here are the results of the second profile



    For the record, TU does not have a problem waiting the extra time and investing the additional money for all these tests. We do everything within our means to provide our customers with the best product and with the most accurate data. We've done this in the past and we will continue doing it.

    We would not take a chance on manufacturing a camshaft if we didn't feel it would be a success. Once Matt gets his engine issues resolved he will follow up with testing both camshafts. We still have plenty of R5s in stock. R4's will be released next year sometime.



    Chris-TU
    Good work, sir. Is the cam grinder Colt by any chance? The irony would be almost too much to handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by iTurbo View Post
    This thread deserves five stars.
    But, Good Lord knows it has taken us plenty of time to get there. I think we're finally getting to a point where we're learning something.

    People want Warren and Rob (and others) to just tell us all this stuff. But it isn't easy to turn all that tacit knowledge into something codified. There are people on here who have forgotten more along the way than most of us know even when putting in a concerted effort to figure it out.
    Last edited by chilort; 12-02-2014 at 01:15 AM.

  4. #384
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by chilort View Post
    Good work, sir. Is the cam grinder Colt by any chance? The irony would be almost too much to handle.
    We are not quite ready to disclose that information. Perhaps in the future as more data comes to light.

    Chris-TU
    Chris Wright www.TurbosUnleashed.com Chris@TurbosUnleashed.com 602-76-BOOST Tech/Sales#: Monday-Saturday 9AM-7PM MST Proudly Serving the Turbo-Mopar Community since 1997 TU is a performance, not marketing company. We provide accurate performance data on all our performance products. Fabricating data to make us appear better is just not our style. Do the research before you buy. ROCK BOTTOM PRICES WITHOUT THE HIDDEN HANDLING FEES.... -----HOME OF THE 9 SECOND FWD T-M CLUTCH-----

  5. #385
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Bravo!
    We're beginning to find and share information that many have formed resentments over for years. lol
    This information is vital to achieving performance goals, and not some big secret.

    It's my opinion that many have purchased camshafts "blindly" in the past.
    This is my opinion because I've done this myself when I got into these cars.
    At the time I was unaware there were so many basing their cam choice on the same information as me;
    one question would be asked, "What's the lift"? and then I'd buy the cam. lol
    I searched for the "biggest" cam, and then just buy it.
    After installation, tuning would be a nightmare, and the cam was a mystery, yet never to blame. lol

    I commend everyone in this thread for the candid, helpful nature of the information.
    I feel that from here on out, many TMs will be performing quite a bit better.

  6. #386

    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by glhs875 View Post
    Although it increased HP, the Taft S3 being a regrind with a smaller base circle is one thing I didn't like about it. I would much rather have a new billet over a regrind! Warren will you pass along some specs of your SCX605 cam, and would this cam be available to someone if they wanted one?
    OK, Since this is a cam thread, and everyone is laying their cam cards on the table, these are most of the specs of my mechanical cams as measured in a fully assembled engine.

    SCX 605
    Gross valve lift. Intake-.605
    Exhaust- .603

    Total seat duration @zero lash-310 degrees

    Lobe separation angle-112, or 114 (two different cams)

    Duration @.050-Intake-259degrees

    Duration @ .050-exhaust-259.5degrees

    Intake valve opens-22deg.BTDC @ .050
    Intake valve closes-57deg. ABDC @ .050

    Exhaust valve opens-71deg. BBDC @ .050
    Exhaust valve closes-8.5deg.ATDC @ .050

    30.5deg. overlap @.050

    centerline-110.75 deg.ATDC (design recommended) Actually run from 107-110

    Overlap split 6.75deg. advanced(favors intake side)

    Min valve to piston clearance-.395 @5 BTC-Int.
    Min valve to piston clearance-.471 @1ATC-Exh.

    Dynamic compression ratio @ .011 lash=7.178:1
    Dynamic Valve lash comp. ratio @.011 lash=6.168:1

    The difficulty in grinding "big" cams for the 8V's is in sourcing large enough cam blanks. I've been told you must buy a pallet of them from the foundry that casts them.???? BUT, That problem might be rectified in the near future......Maybe.
    I have thought of releasing ALL of the part numbers and specs to duplicate my entire cyl. head and cam set-up, but I have not because there are so few, if any, who would want to duplicate it.
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  7. #387
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I spoke with Chris @ TU on the phone yesterday. He is sending out a R5 to me so I can degree it on an engine. Those #'s will be posted. I will get to degreeing camshaft in ASAP, but I will be out of town away from home for week or so. Be patient, the installed #'s will be posted. Now we need someone to do the same with the F4 camshaft, and any others out there.
    Todd

  8. #388
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    OK, Since this is a cam thread, and everyone is laying their cam cards on the table, these are most of the specs of my mechanical cams as measured in a fully assembled engine.

    SCX 605
    Gross valve lift. Intake-.605
    Exhaust- .603

    Total seat duration @zero lash-310 degrees

    Lobe separation angle-112, or 114 (two different cams)

    Duration @.050-Intake-259degrees

    Duration @ .050-exhaust-259.5degrees

    Intake valve opens-22deg.BTDC @ .050
    Intake valve closes-57deg. ABDC @ .050

    Exhaust valve opens-71deg. BBDC @ .050
    Exhaust valve closes-8.5deg.ATDC @ .050

    30.5deg. overlap @.050

    centerline-110.75 deg.ATDC (design recommended) Actually run from 107-110

    Overlap split 6.75deg. advanced(favors intake side)

    Min valve to piston clearance-.395 @5 BTC-Int.
    Min valve to piston clearance-.471 @1ATC-Exh.

    Dynamic compression ratio @ .011 lash=7.178:1
    Dynamic Valve lash comp. ratio @.011 lash=6.168:1

    The difficulty in grinding "big" cams for the 8V's is in sourcing large enough cam blanks. I've been told you must buy a pallet of them from the foundry that casts them.???? BUT, That problem might be rectified in the near future......Maybe.
    I have thought of releasing ALL of the part numbers and specs to duplicate my entire cyl. head and cam set-up, but I have not because there are so few, if any, who would want to duplicate it.
    Warren, thanks for sharing the cam specs of your outstanding combo!!! I feel that very few people would give up there secrets like you have!!

  9. #389
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    got quiet again in here..

    so heres another loosely related tangent, but at least I put it in its own thread:

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...eing-measuring

  10. #390
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    OK, Since this is a cam thread, and everyone is laying their cam cards on the table, these are most of the specs of my mechanical cams as measured in a fully assembled engine.

    SCX 605
    Gross valve lift. Intake-.605
    Exhaust- .603

    Total seat duration @zero lash-310 degrees

    Lobe separation angle-112, or 114 (two different cams)

    Duration @.050-Intake-259degrees

    Duration @ .050-exhaust-259.5degrees

    Intake valve opens-22deg.BTDC @ .050
    Intake valve closes-57deg. ABDC @ .050

    Exhaust valve opens-71deg. BBDC @ .050
    Exhaust valve closes-8.5deg.ATDC @ .050

    30.5deg. overlap @.050

    centerline-110.75 deg.ATDC (design recommended) Actually run from 107-110

    Overlap split 6.75deg. advanced(favors intake side)

    Min valve to piston clearance-.395 @5 BTC-Int.
    Min valve to piston clearance-.471 @1ATC-Exh.

    Dynamic compression ratio @ .011 lash=7.178:1
    Dynamic Valve lash comp. ratio @.011 lash=6.168:1

    The difficulty in grinding "big" cams for the 8V's is in sourcing large enough cam blanks. I've been told you must buy a pallet of them from the foundry that casts them.???? BUT, That problem might be rectified in the near future......Maybe.
    I have thought of releasing ALL of the part numbers and specs to duplicate my entire cyl. head and cam set-up, but I have not because there are so few, if any, who would want to duplicate it.

    Warren I think a lot of people would LOVE to duplicate your cyl. head, but almost nobdy could use it to the full potential that you are using it for. Not just anyone can be a human CNC machine
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #391
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 85boostbox View Post
    Warren I think a lot of people would LOVE to duplicate your cyl. head, but almost nobdy could use it to the full potential that you are using it for. Not just anyone can be a human CNC machine
    Warren if you haven't already it would seem like a good idea to have your precious head work scanned. I'm assuming you've probably already made castings of it, if not, silicones cheap, I'd say $50 in ebay silicone would set you up for both ports and combustion chamber and its about an hours work.

    I did a little measuring of the stock turbo roller cam from my 2.5

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...rbo-roller-cam

    I now have the ability to measure cams very precisely at will and quickly. Pretty much everything in the valve train actually.

  12. #392

    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Warren if you haven't already it would seem like a good idea to have your precious head work scanned. I'm assuming you've probably already made castings of it, if not, silicones cheap, I'd say $50 in ebay silicone would set you up for both ports and combustion chamber and its about an hours work.

    I did a little measuring of the stock turbo roller cam from my 2.5

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...rbo-roller-cam

    I now have the ability to measure cams very precisely at will and quickly. Pretty much everything in the valve train actually.
    Not to hi-jack this thread but, Would you actually need the head to scan, or would scanning a port mold do? I suppose the whole head would be best to get everything indexed and coordinated up?
    I would have scanned the head already if I knew of a place within 200miles of here that could do it. I would NEVER send it off to have it done, I would have to deliver it.

    I did make port molds when it was in development, but the molds shrank after I was done with them and I threw them out.
    I did make aluminum templates of the ports, and tracings of the chambers so that I could duplicate it if need be.

    Good Idea to use your rotary table to measure cams, I have a rotary table sitting on the bench and never thought of doing that
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  13. #393
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    Not to hi-jack this thread but, Would you actually need the head to scan, or would scanning a port mold do? I suppose the whole head would be best to get everything indexed and coordinated up?
    I would have scanned the head already if I knew of a place within 200miles of here that could do it. I would NEVER send it off to have it done, I would have to deliver it.

    I did make port molds when it was in development, but the molds shrank after I was done with them and I threw them out.
    I did make aluminum templates of the ports, and tracings of the chambers so that I could duplicate it if need be.

    Good Idea to use your rotary table to measure cams, I have a rotary table sitting on the bench and never thought of doing that
    AFAIK the only realistic methods that can scan a head port directly would involve a laser or structured light scanner on a CMM arm. Both are way out of my price range, even to rent. That sort of setup would literally cost more than my house lol! But watch in 5 years they'll be $500 on fleabay.

    The cheaper and more common way is to scan a casting, thats what I did with the swirl intake port and CC I scanned.

    For references I also cast the head gasket and intake manifold gasket surfaces. The valve guide gets cast along with the machined conical bowl. So all those things let you align it in space correctly.

    For your ports I would imagine the same process I used for the scanning I did would work just fine.

    Did you see my scanning thread? It shows everything I did from silicone to CNCing a feature in the CC based on scan geometry.

    http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f32...-our-head.html

    What are your goals for scanning? Do you want to just have an accurate record of your work in 3 dimensions or would you want to go all the way to trying to duplicate them in CNC?

    The chinese 3" rotary table got here today but it has a brass ring gear so I dont think its up to the torque required to turn a fully-stocked valvetrain. But it would probably do the job of the big rotary I was using for cam measuring on the bench. Things are ripe for making a little fixture to hold the rotary table in place and also the dial indicators so its set-and-forget and measure any cam with zilch setup. If one were to get a cheapo digital dial indicator and hook up a stepper motor you could make an electronic/computerized cam scanner which could give you the entire profile. Although its super easy to get really close by making measurements every 5 degrees or so manually.

  14. #394

    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    AFAIK the only realistic methods that can scan a head port directly would involve a laser or structured light scanner on a CMM arm. Both are way out of my price range, even to rent. That sort of setup would literally cost more than my house lol! But watch in 5 years they'll be $500 on fleabay.

    The cheaper and more common way is to scan a casting, thats what I did with the swirl intake port and CC I scanned.

    For references I also cast the head gasket and intake manifold gasket surfaces. The valve guide gets cast along with the machined conical bowl. So all those things let you align it in space correctly.

    For your ports I would imagine the same process I used for the scanning I did would work just fine.

    Did you see my scanning thread? It shows everything I did from silicone to CNCing a feature in the CC based on scan geometry.

    http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f32...-our-head.html

    What are your goals for scanning? Do you want to just have an accurate record of your work in 3 dimensions or would you want to go all the way to trying to duplicate them in CNC?

    The chinese 3" rotary table got here today but it has a brass ring gear so I dont think its up to the torque required to turn a fully-stocked valvetrain. But it would probably do the job of the big rotary I was using for cam measuring on the bench. Things are ripe for making a little fixture to hold the rotary table in place and also the dial indicators so its set-and-forget and measure any cam with zilch setup. If one were to get a cheapo digital dial indicator and hook up a stepper motor you could make an electronic/computerized cam scanner which could give you the entire profile. Although its super easy to get really close by making measurements every 5 degrees or so manually.
    My goal for scanning my head would be so that if I broke this one and it was not repairable, I could have one CNC'd and save me 90% of the work to make another..........OR to sell copies, but that is for another discussion.
    Back to cams for this thread............
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  15. #395
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor turbo2point2's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    I have finished measuring an R5 cam on a customer's build and here is what I came up with. I measured this using 1.75:1 as the follower ratio.


    Lift (actual at valve) EVO EVC IVO IVC

    .010" (.0175) 54.5 BBDC 6.25 ATDC 14.5 BTDC 50.5 ABDC
    .020" (.035) 46.5 BBDC 2.0 BTDC 6.75 BTDC 43.5 ABDC
    .040" (.070) 35.0 BBDC 12.25 BTDC 5.0 ATDC 34.0 ABDC
    .050" (.0875) 30.5 BBDC 16.0 BTDC 9.5 ATDC 30.5 ABDC
    .100" (.175) 13.5 BBDC 32.0 BTDC 31.0 ATDC 15.75 ABDC
    .150" (.2625) 1.5 ABDC 45.25 BTDC 45.0 ATDC 2.5 ABDC
    .200" (.350) 17.75 ABDC 59.5 BTDC 63.5 ATDC 12.0 BBDC
    .250" (.4375) 39.0 ABDC 79.0 BTDC 88.0 ATDC 34.0 BBDC

    Intake Duration @ .050- 201*
    Exhaust Duration @.050- 194.5
    Intake Centerline ATDC- 110*
    Exhaust Centerline BTDC- 113.25*
    LSA- 111.625
    Cam is advanced 1.625*
    Overlap -25.5*
    Max lift Exh- .489"
    Max Lift Int- .479"

    -Brian Slowe
    87 Shadow "BSX"
    8.58 @ 162

    86 GLHT
    10.62 @ 130

    05 SRT4
    12.1 @ ???.??

    06 Ram 3500

  16. #396
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Exhaust has more lift? Or did that get switched?

    Has anyone measured a stock 89 turbo roller cam for comparison?

  17. #397
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo2point2 View Post
    I have finished measuring an R5 cam on a customer's build and here is what I came up with. I measured this using 1.75:1 as the follower ratio.


    Lift (actual at valve) EVO EVC IVO IVC

    .010" (.0175) 54.5 BBDC 6.25 ATDC 14.5 BTDC 50.5 ABDC
    .020" (.035) 46.5 BBDC 2.0 BTDC 6.75 BTDC 43.5 ABDC
    .040" (.070) 35.0 BBDC 12.25 BTDC 5.0 ATDC 34.0 ABDC
    .050" (.0875) 30.5 BBDC 16.0 BTDC 9.5 ATDC 30.5 ABDC
    .100" (.175) 13.5 BBDC 32.0 BTDC 31.0 ATDC 15.75 ABDC
    .150" (.2625) 1.5 ABDC 45.25 BTDC 45.0 ATDC 2.5 ABDC
    .200" (.350) 17.75 ABDC 59.5 BTDC 63.5 ATDC 12.0 BBDC
    .250" (.4375) 39.0 ABDC 79.0 BTDC 88.0 ATDC 34.0 BBDC

    Intake Duration @ .050- 201*
    Exhaust Duration @.050- 194.5
    Intake Centerline ATDC- 110*
    Exhaust Centerline BTDC- 113.25*
    LSA- 111.625
    Cam is advanced 1.625*
    Overlap -25.5*
    Max lift Exh- .489"
    Max Lift Int- .479"
    Great info!

    Just to be sure, when you say you measured it using a 1.75 follower ratio, do you mean that after you made the measurements on the cam lobe, you calculated what the actual valve lift should be using 1.75 as a multiplier? So all this data comes from the cam lobe including the max lift numbers?

    If I'm reading this right, comparing the R5 cam to the stock roller turbo 2.5 cam I measured:

    The R5 exhaust duration @ 0.050" valve lift is 7.5 degrees shorter.
    The R5 exhaust max valve lift is 0.075" greater.

    I dont have any intake valve/lobe data for the stock cam.

    I think we need some data on how the follower ratio changes with lift to make sure our duration numbers are real. I measured duration at the valve so I know its real, but when converting from lobe duration to valve duration, if the follower ratio varies, that will make the calculated duration different from the actual variation. By how much I'm not sure. Or is there another way to deal with that?

  18. #398
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Okay I think this would work to compensate for follower ratio variance:

    -measure duration at valve of a certain lift, say 0.050"
    -then measure duration at the lobe of the calculated lobe lift, so 0.050" / 1.75 = 0.028"
    -compare the two durations.

    Thats the error in calculated valve lift durations based on cam lobe lift durations at 0.050" on our valvetrain. Shouldnt matter what cam it is or what the steepness of the lobe is or anything, as long as we compare apples to apples using the same valve lift references, i.e. 0.050", and then offset those durations using this error.

  19. #399
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor turbo2point2's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Great info!

    Just to be sure, when you say you measured it using a 1.75 follower ratio, do you mean that after you made the measurements on the cam lobe, you calculated what the actual valve lift should be using 1.75 as a multiplier? So all this data comes from the cam lobe including the max lift numbers?

    If I'm reading this right, comparing the R5 cam to the stock roller turbo 2.5 cam I measured:

    The R5 exhaust duration @ 0.050" valve lift is 7.5 degrees shorter.
    The R5 exhaust max valve lift is 0.075" greater.

    I dont have any intake valve/lobe data for the stock cam.

    I think we need some data on how the follower ratio changes with lift to make sure our duration numbers are real. I measured duration at the valve so I know its real, but when converting from lobe duration to valve duration, if the follower ratio varies, that will make the calculated duration different from the actual variation. By how much I'm not sure. Or is there another way to deal with that?
    When I said I used 1.75 ratio, I was referring to the formula used to get the valve lift. All of the measurements were taken at the valve on a complete engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by moparzrule View Post
    Exhaust has more lift? Or did that get switched?

    Has anyone measured a stock 89 turbo roller cam for comparison?
    Exh has more lift. Take a look at the R5 cam card, they list a larger follower diameter for the intake. Maybe thats where the extra lift was coming from. Even just using a quick method of taking a caliper and zeroing it out at base circle then measuring the lobe, the exh has @ .280, the intake has @ .272.

    -Brian Slowe
    87 Shadow "BSX"
    8.58 @ 162

    86 GLHT
    10.62 @ 130

    05 SRT4
    12.1 @ ???.??

    06 Ram 3500

  20. #400
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

    Interesting. I was just making sure because in the previous specs above it you listed intake first twice and then when you got to lift you mention exhaust first. Thats all.

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