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Thread: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

  1. #21
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Not transmission but very badly needed.....make some 4" diameter axles for JT and whoever else is tired of breaking them!
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]47 Time NHRA/IHRA drag race champ-----84 Plymouth Horizon/1 of 84 HO equipped from the factory/1910 lbs, 2.5 with carb, nearly 315,000 miles-----04 SRT4/S2 with S3 turbo/12.17 @ 119/DOTs/93 Octane/SOLD-----2003 PT Cruiser GT, won a True Street class at the 2017 National Muscle Car Association World Street Finals-----2010 Toyota Prius/my delivery truck, 77.9 mpg best and NOT A PLUG IN, nearly 230,000 miles and way over 5600 miles per month! [/COLOR][/SIZE]

  2. #22
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Yer problem with sub 2500 RPM at 70 MPH is HP is south of 50 and you're trying to drag a brick through the air, and that's without having fat high rolling resistance tires on to further complicate things...

    First couple of charts I could find for not too highly tuned motors...
    http://www.turbododge.com/forums/att...-here-dyno.jpg
    http://www.turbododge.com/forums/att...p-airfuel2.jpg

    2000-3000 range is off the left side, but you can see where it's come from.


    Spitballing with this calculator with some typical more TM-ey values tells me you're gonna need 30-35 horsies, AND you're gonna need that at less than about 80% throttle, or you'll be open loop every time you twitch your right foot.
    http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero...resistance.php

    Ideally we'd like to see a BSFC map to see exactly what load/engine speed would do best, but you never know, could be that them Chrysler engineers actually did something like that.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  3. #23
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 View Post
    Yer problem with sub 2500 RPM at 70 MPH is HP is south of 50 and you're trying to drag a brick through the air, and that's without having fat high rolling resistance tires on to further complicate things...

    First couple of charts I could find for not too highly tuned motors...
    http://www.turbododge.com/forums/att...-here-dyno.jpg
    http://www.turbododge.com/forums/att...p-airfuel2.jpg

    2000-3000 range is off the left side, but you can see where it's come from.


    Spitballing with this calculator with some typical more TM-ey values tells me you're gonna need 30-35 horsies, AND you're gonna need that at less than about 80% throttle, or you'll be open loop every time you twitch your right foot.
    http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero...resistance.php

    Ideally we'd like to see a BSFC map to see exactly what load/engine speed would do best, but you never know, could be that them Chrysler engineers actually did something like that.
    Bolton 3.0 makes ~62 hp @ 2000 rpms and about 82 at 2500 rpms. Something like a 0.60 ratio 5th gear would drop 2500 to a little less than 2100. My big concern is 50-60mph, not 70. We really need another gear so you have to balance the give and take at different MPH's. I know when towing it was easier to go 70 than 55. Power rose by RPM faster than wind drag increased.
    I probably run taller tires than most people when I have the tires I want installed so I would be dropped lower than others. 25" or taller tires in the past because of our short 5th gear.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  4. #24
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Yah, 3.0s can do it, probably 2 door L bodies can do it, I'm a bit doubtful about all the bodies with more frontal area and cDs over 0.4 managing it with 2.5s never mind 2.2s. (With the exception of HO N/A 2.2) ... or at least doing it "comfortably" i.e. you don't have to time your trip according to weather because 10mph headwind puts you over the edge.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  5. #25
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAssPerformance View Post
    A machining center that can do helical gears adn such is amazingly badass! I sooo wish i had one!
    I am very excited about the possibilities. If you are patient on craigslist and maybe ebay, you can end up getting great machinery for really cheap.

    Right now there is a $400 CNC lathe in Southern Carolina..single phase, with turret, and small. If you live near it man oh man

    The buy it now was $900...I seriously think it might go for less than $1000...

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/251678123171...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

    There are some good ideas in this thread!

    For the stick drag racers, the need is actually for a full straight cut "dogbox" gearset. The helical gears are great for production cars being a ton quieter, but the axial loads that the helical put on the shafts tend to damage the bearings, bearign plates, cases, etc. To see broken pictures of all of the above, please see my build thread.
    I think the problem is making the one-piece shaft with its "built in" gears, from scratch..thats a little too ambitious for what I can currently do..


    And while doing this, instead of making the speeds gears with the OEM type synchro teeth, making the spped gears and synchros "faceplated" will add to the strength.
    Now this may be a possibility...

  6. #26
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Stock is ~0.72 which is tallish but there's no reason not to go lower if the cars can push it efficiently. Cordes is an excellent gatherer of MPG data so he would be a good guinea pig if willing.

    How far apart is the trans? 5th is the only gear that has to come off to get the shafts out of the bearing plate (is my brain addled? I feel like im lying), so in all likelihood the other ones are still on the shaft and 5th is the only one not currently attached. Or if it is attached it's the one at the opposite end from the input shaft or the pinion gear.
    The dead 523 is totally apart..just a big plastic tub filled with guts. I'll hunt through it

  7. #27
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Bolton 3.0 makes ~62 hp @ 2000 rpms and about 82 at 2500 rpms. Something like a 0.60 ratio 5th gear would drop 2500 to a little less than 2100. My big concern is 50-60mph, not 70. We really need another gear so you have to balance the give and take at different MPH's. I know when towing it was easier to go 70 than 55. Power rose by RPM faster than wind drag increased.
    I probably run taller tires than most people when I have the tires I want installed so I would be dropped lower than others. 25" or taller tires in the past because of our short 5th gear.
    maybe a test that could be done to simulate lower power would be to reach the cruising speed for the new gear, on flat ground, with no wind..then, keep your foot in the same position on the gas, and let the clutch in and out at a certain duty cycle...so if you want half power, 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off, 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off..etc..since there is nearly no change in vehicle speed and you arent changing the throttle position I would think there wouldnt be much "jerk"...do it for 60 seconds and your average speed is what you would have at 50% power, for instance

  8. #28
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    I was going to say find some used taller tires to run to simulate the different gearing to see how it would effect mileage.

  9. #29
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Yeah, that taller tire idea is an easier one, especially for people like me who tend to have junk tires sitting around and have the ability to mount/balance if needed. Now all i need is for one of my 5spd TDs to be currently legal to go on the road for extended mpg testing. Spirit is up next, hopefully DDable within the next month.

    As for what's a good number, i dont think anyone with a 3.5FD has ever complained about having too tall of a 5th gear, so we know for a fact you can put a 5th gear on a 3.85 that brings 5th down to the same overall ratio as a 3.5 and noone will complain. That would be a .65:1 gear ratio. So that would be something that is guaranteed improvement for 3.85 trannies and more of an experiment for the 3.5 trannies.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  10. #30
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Transfer gears for the 413 (31th) and 603 transmissions, basically allows for different "final drive" ratios that otherwise couldn't be done.

    Might also consider "guts" that would allow an extra clutch/steel or two. Billet Pistons (Simon has broke those)...

    Mike
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  11. #31
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    OK, I'm doing some number crunching. Here it goes.

    At 2250 RPM with a 3.85FD and a stock .71 555 5th gear you should be clipping along at about 59.3mph with 195/60r15 tires. I've obtained an honest 40+mpgs in my 2.5 shadow with the difference being 205/60s.

    Everything the same, but 3.50FD gets you to 65.2mph. As noted previously, nobody has ever complained about a 3.50FD on the freeway. That would give us about a .63 5th gear to do closest to that speed at the same RPM.

    Now for those like myself who want a serious cruising 5th speed gear, I would suggest that I know a person who had a 3.05FD trans and got crazy gas mileage. Of course the catch is that you can't really use 5th gear until at least 60MPH or more. It was also a 2.5 4 door L body so that is a bit lighter than most of us with more torque than a 2.2. The 3.05 gives you 74.8mph. Yowza. Keeping the 3.85FD you would need a .56 5th gear to achieve the same thing. I would be down for a .6 gear for sure. That's way shorter than going to a 3.05FD gear, but better than the 3.50FD. IMO it would be a great in between and yield wild gas mileage even in a 2.2 powered car.

  12. #32
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    I am semi-actively trying to source a 3.05 FD a465 gearset to build a tall gear hybrid for one of my cars. A really tall 5th alone doesnt accomplish EXACTLY the same thing, but if Asa were to build anything more than 2 copies of such a part i would consider it more readily accessible than a 3.05FD a465 donor trans.

    Part of my reasoning for wanting tall gearing is that i tend to put short tires on all my cars as part of my massive lowering regimen. With a 23" tire even a 3.05 gearset is really not that aggressive. ~2200 rpm @70mph. A ~0.60-0.65 5th gear seems pretty mild/safe to me.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  13. #33
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    I am semi-actively trying to source a 3.05 FD a465 gearset to build a tall gear hybrid for one of my cars. A really tall 5th alone doesnt accomplish EXACTLY the same thing, but if Asa were to build anything more than 2 copies of such a part i would consider it more readily accessible than a 3.05FD a465 donor trans.

    Part of my reasoning for wanting tall gearing is that i tend to put short tires on all my cars as part of my massive lowering regimen. With a 23" tire even a 3.05 gearset is really not that aggressive. ~2200 rpm @70mph. A ~0.60-0.65 5th gear seems pretty mild/safe to me.
    okay guys I'll shoot for 0.6...job one is to see if I still have a 5th gear in my 523 guts so I can get an idea whats what

  14. #34
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    maybe a test that could be done to simulate lower power would be to reach the cruising speed for the new gear, on flat ground, with no wind..then, keep your foot in the same position on the gas, and let the clutch in and out at a certain duty cycle...so if you want half power, 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off, 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off..etc..since there is nearly no change in vehicle speed and you arent changing the throttle position I would think there wouldnt be much "jerk"...do it for 60 seconds and your average speed is what you would have at 50% power, for instance
    I am saying that me running tall tires is a fact and I would be glad to be cruising at even lower rpms than other people. 15" tires are disappearing from production and I agree with Vigo that I would enjoy a little smaller tire to have a lower car.


    And regarding straight cut gears, how crazy would it be to either machine stock input shaft to accept removable gears, or at least not try to make a straight cut gears built into the shaft kinda setup.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 10-21-2014 at 11:18 AM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  15. #35
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Off the wall transmission builds? How bout a 555 with a bigger stamped 5th gear housing, for that invisible 6th gear youre going to make? Lol its already 4 plane, little magic with the shifter rails and selector box, and a way to attach them to the existing 5th gear guts, and BLAAAM!

  16. #36
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    I agree with the face plates to make dog shifting possible. You can then get rid of all the heavy syncro crap, too!

    I'd be interested in the tall 5th for top end speed, not mpg's so much...although it would help for sure.

    There's more, but I don't have time to really get into it...lunch is almost over.

  17. #37
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    Not really a suggestion, but I believe acannell is making huge gains in the turbo mopar world and carrying all of us on his back. Thanks acannell!

  18. #38
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    My omni with stock 525 revs so damn high at 70+mph. My 4x4 t355 patriot revs pretty damn high too. That thing is so slow though that it needs to be 3k+ rpms at 70 to get over hills lol. It has a .72 fifth and 4.12 final drive.

  19. #39
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts

    a 4spd FWD lenco transalxe

  20. #40
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    Re: lets talk about custom, skys the limit, tranny parts


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