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Thread: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

  1. #161
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    I would concur..wouldnt the simplest explanation for all this be that there was some blockage in the oil passages? Which allowed the engine to survive at normal driving for awhile (being damaged the whole time), but then when you went racing perhaps starved things just a little bit more and lead to massive bearing failure?

    I think you need to flush your oil passages out. Its such a strong suspect that even to just do a slap-together and cross your fingers style rebuild its still worth it. But Im not sure its possible with the crank in place. If there is a blockage it will just keep moving until it gets stuck. But...

    Perhaps you could do the following:

    -oil pan off
    -rod caps off
    -provide a pressurized oil source to the distribution block. (*)
    -visually see that oil seems to be coming out on each rod bearing hole equally. Maybe there is an obvious difference, and you win. Or there is not an obvious difference. Oh well.

    *- invent a pressurized oil source
    Actually, he wouldn't have to invent one;
    a hand pump would work just fine.

    moparzrule, you MUST flush the galleys.
    Remember the oil pan full of bearing?
    Well, that's absolutely not all of it.
    Right now(hopefully you haven't reassembled yet)
    your engine is polluted with bearing material.

    This diagram should help you for clearing it out.
    (You can get a better pic by Googling, Dodge 2.2 oil galleys)


    By just installing a replacement set of bearings, you're asking for trouble.
    Not only that, you're risking damage to other vital engine components.

    The call is yours to make,
    but I know theres only one RIGHT way to do this.
    Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best my friend.

  2. #162
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by knownenemy View Post
    Actually, he wouldn't have to invent one;
    a hand pump would work just fine.
    I dunno. I've actually always wondered when the day will come when I need to flush the oil system and check for this sort of thing.

    So you are saying like a mityvac with a pressure port (not all have it), and then a pressure-tight container filled with oil, to the distrib block? That might work, but it depends on how much flow there is. He might need to disconnect and block the turbo oil path because thats fairly free-flowing isnt it?

    Moparzrule: this isnt something really insane like you deleted the balance shaft carrier but didnt plug the oil port for it right? lol just thought of that

  3. #163
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Accusump = pressurized oil source

  4. #164
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    I dunno. I've actually always wondered when the day will come when I need to flush the oil system and check for this sort of thing.

    So you are saying like a mityvac with a pressure port (not all have it), and then a pressure-tight container filled with oil, to the distrib block? That might work, but it depends on how much flow there is. He might need to disconnect and block the turbo oil path because thats fairly free-flowing isnt it?

    Moparzrule: this isnt something really insane like you deleted the balance shaft carrier but didnt plug the oil port for it right? lol just thought of that
    A hand pump something like this:
    http://www.amazon.com/Hand-Pump-Siph...+oil+extractor
    Usually referred to as "Oil Extractors"

    And if it were me, I'd get the engine out, onto a stand, pull the distributor, drop the oil pan,
    dip the pick-up screen in a bucket of oil, and drive the oil pump with a drill while rotating the engine.
    Do I have oil coming from each Main, each rod, etc?
    And even if I did, I'd still flush the entire system with an oil system cleaner.
    Something like almost any of these:
    https://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...78&fr2=piv-web

  5. #165
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Guys, how many times can I say that I plan to completely re-do this rebuild when I actually pull the engine out? That includes taking the block back to the machine shop to be cleaned/flushed.

    I don't think I have any blockage (well I might now, but I don't think it was the cause), it's likely because of the stock pickup tube that I didn't open up AND the fact that I overtorqued the rods a crap load.

    According to your diagram posted, the distribution block is AFTER the number 4 bearing. If there was a blockage in some way, it wouldn't have shown good oil pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Moparzrule: this isnt something really insane like you deleted the balance shaft carrier but didnt plug the oil port for it right? lol just thought of that
    This engine never had balance shafts, it was an 89 2.2 T2 engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by knownenemy View Post
    By just installing a replacement set of bearings, you're asking for trouble.
    Not only that, you're risking damage to other vital engine components.
    What else am I risking damaging? The rods and crank are already trashed and getting replaced.

    I don't really see how bearing material is floating throughout the whole engine. Anything that gets picked up immediately goes through the filter, and it's not like the oil passages at the rods ''suck'' any oil back up. It's all being blown out, all the time.

  6. #166
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    ive done a rod bearing slap that were so bad that they were mushrooming out the sides of the rods, that car ran for another 11 months and 10,000 miles, before being crashed, this was on a tbi Omni though. ive also done a bearing swap on an 87 glhs charger that lasted less than 300 miles (it was just supposed to be to get it home), but I suspect there was bearing material stuck in the crank.

    Also, neither of these had the same damage to the rod like yours...

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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Oil pump pickup didn't cause your problems. When you get the mains off, it will help isolate the problem.

    When I meant dilution, I meant is the oil full of fuel? When my rings didn't seat, I hit the track, due to the higher boost, forced fuel into my oil and wiped out my bearings,
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    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    What if the mains are perfectly fine? What am I looking for?

    I did not notice fuel in the oil. I also never even got a chance to run big boost.

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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    OK. If the mains are fine, its not an oiling issue but assembly error or out of round/too tight rod bearings.

    Does the oil smell like oil?
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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  10. #170
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    I'll pull a main cap Saturday, it just snowed 4'' here today so it's not gonna happen until atleast then. I'll smell the oil tomorrow if I remember.

  11. #171
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Meh, got it all back together today. Took the baffles out of the pan, opened up the oil pickup so its full screen now. Lightly sanded down the high spots on the crank journal, and then polished it best I could progressively up to 4000 grit. Assembled everything, didn't seem to have excessive slop it seemed nice and tight. Put in Castrol 20w50 oil and a new filter. Fired it up, good oil pressure. Let it warm up and took it for a spin. Oil pressure is fine just cruising around and until about 5000rpm which at that point it just shoots down. It's at like 60 then takes a nose dive to 20 so I let off quick and it regains back to 60.

    Thing is I really doubt that it's losing oil at the pickup (as in, from the acceleration). I have the deep sump 2.2 pan and the deep pickup tube. I'm still thinking that somehow the oil pump is bad. Not sure what else could be going on. Contemplating just tossing in an extra quart just to rule out the oil shortage at the pickup theory.

  12. #172
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Good to hear its running! If you have the square bottom balance shaft pan, its worth a shot to try extra oil. I ran the square bottom pan on the 2.2L and ran 6 quarts.

    Another way to check to separate if its RPM or vehicle inertia, if you free rev it to 5000+ rpm does it lose pressure? Unless the pickup is not very submerged and its sucking it out faster than its returning.

    What could affect the oil pump pressure by RPM unless its cracked or leaking pressure somewhere?

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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    you still have the restricter in the block or has it been removed?

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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Do you have manual oil pressure gauge or another sending unit you can wire in to make sure it really is low pressure? Does it make noise above 5k (well more than a usual 8v)?

  15. #175
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAssPerformance View Post
    Good to hear its running! If you have the square bottom balance shaft pan, its worth a shot to try extra oil. I ran the square bottom pan on the 2.2L and ran 6 quarts.

    Another way to check to separate if its RPM or vehicle inertia, if you free rev it to 5000+ rpm does it lose pressure? Unless the pickup is not very submerged and its sucking it out faster than its returning.

    What could affect the oil pump pressure by RPM unless its cracked or leaking pressure somewhere?
    It's the 2.2 CB pan, not the square pan, but I've always used that style pan and pickup in all my builds and never had a problem before.

    I'm not sure I'll have to try it. My neighbors already hate me lol, but yeah thats a good idea. Takes the acceleration out of the equation.

    Not sure, I should have examined the oil pump when I had the pan off but I didn't think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bakes View Post
    you still have the restricter in the block or has it been removed?
    You know, I didn't check for it when I built the engine. If the machine shop took it out, they didn't give it back to me with the block....and they even gave me a bag with the old freeze plugs lol. But that may be worth pulling the head and finding out.

    But, would I even get to 60 psi with it not there? I would think it would be low at all RPM's.

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    Do you have manual oil pressure gauge or another sending unit you can wire in to make sure it really is low pressure? Does it make noise above 5k (well more than a usual 8v)?
    Mechanical gauge, it really is dropping. No funny noises, probably why I didn't notice at the track....wasn't looking at my oil pressure was looking at boost and air/fuel.

  16. #176
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Is the oil pump a high volume type? If so that could cause a problem with using the stock 5 quart fill.

  17. #177
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    It's a stock original unit.

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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    I wonder if the pressure relief spring and cup have a fault?

    Here's my thinking: The pressure builds and pushes on the cup and spring, once it reaches 60 psi it could hang in the bore, then when the pressure gets high enough it pushes the cup past a bur or dirt or whatever and you have a huge drop in pressure.

    Just a thought.

  19. #179
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    I believe thats a definite possibility. Nevertheless, this engine is getting pulled and I'll have to rebuild all over again. I do have another oil pump, so I'll be tossing this one and hoping that one is in good working order.

    I might pull this one apart just to see if I can find anything wrong with it.

  20. #180
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    Re: 88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

    Hmmm Shouldn't have any issues with the 2.2L pan and 5qt. Pressure relief sounds like a possibility.

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