88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

[moparzrule]

Well, if I had realized that was a possible problem I would have swapped the pump while I had the pan off.....but at this point I'm probably not going to drop the pan to do it again since I know the crank is already trashed and these bearings will be lucky to last 100 miles.

Rebuild time! Atleast I can swap in my A568 now and get rid of the ticking time bomb a523.

[OmniLuvr]

what year 523?

[moparzrule]

1990 with the 3.50 FD

I would still keep it as backup though, or if I ever wanted to go hybrid.

[OmniLuvr]

damn... tough call, if your going for 11's 568 it would almost have to be...

[moparzrule]

Yeah. With the issues I'm having with the shifter cable I probably would have been better off keeping the original 555 and just putting the moly plate on it. Oh well.

[Ondonti]

I wonder if the pressure relief spring and cup have a fault?

Here's my thinking: The pressure builds and pushes on the cup and spring, once it reaches 60 psi it could hang in the bore, then when the pressure gets high enough it pushes the cup past a bur or dirt or whatever and you have a huge drop in pressure.

Just a thought.

Thats where I would go if its not an issue of oil failing to drain back down fast enough at high rpms or starvation simply from G forces.
I don't know anything about 2.2/2.5 pumps. Could it even be the shafts starting to strip or do those go from zero to dead?

That relief could burst open and get stuck...but what would make it close back up? Just barely enough bleedoff pressure combining with a snag to keep it stuck until the bleedoff pressure decreases as rpms drop?

[moparzrule]

So I have a question, is it a 5 quart pan or is it 5 quarts total fill with the filter? I'm wondering if my dipstick is off. I used a 5 quart oil change jug, and thats all....it shows completely full on the dipstick, but that would only be like 4 quarts in the pan since there's 1 in the filter.

I've been thinking of throwing an extra quart in there just to try it anyway, but I still really doubt it's the problem with the deep sump 2.2 pan.....they pickup oil even with 1 quart in the pan, could there be 3+ quarts out of the pan oiling the engine at 5000 RPM? Doesn't seem likely.

I still have not tested the free rev 5k rpm, gotta do that too.

Could it even be the shafts starting to strip or do those go from zero to dead?

Nah thats impossible because it would stop turning the distributor too. The gears/splines on the intermediate shaft and the oil pump were both in good shape.

[acannell]

il pressure is fine just cruising around and until about 5000rpm which at that point it just shoots down. It's at like 60 then takes a nose dive to 20 so I let off quick and it regains back to 60.

And this is on your mechanical gauge right?

Problem is how to discriminate between this observation being caused by the damage that is now there or if its the original problem.

Could the higher rpms be somehow churning the oil so much the pickup becomes uncovered? And that is possible because the combination of parts is not correct somehow?

Any anomalous observations by looking into the valve cover with oil cap off while opening up the throttle so it revs 5000+?

The pump is positive displacement so flow is directly tied to RPM.

I like the bypass-related issue because it would have a sudden effect like you are observing. Maybe the filter is somehow wrong. But that wouldnt really explain why the pressure drops below normal.

I think diagnosing oil pressure issues while you have known-bad bearings is going to be very difficult. You may have to use non-pressure related clues to track it down.

[moparzrule]

I just replaced the bearings and everything seemed nice and tight again, and there's no knock at all. The pan and pickup I have are correct, there's no issue there. The only question I had was if the dipstick was showing the proper amount. But like I said, even if I was a quart low I really don't think it would be getting oil starved with a stock oil pump.

I talked it over with a few knowledgeable folks and they all pretty much agree my overtorque on the rod bolts was not likely the cause.

Everything really does point to the relief valve. You know it's kind of funny, having the 4 bar cal making it break up in the top end was a blessing in disguise....it was keeping me from revving it real high all the time. But this whole time figuring that out I never noticed the oil pressure taking a dump because I was so focused on timing and air/fuel. Swapped to the 3 bar and a cal for it, pulled great up top and then oil starved my engine. If only I paid attention to all my gauges, but I only watched the oil pressure while cruising around and idle....at WOT my eyes were glued to boost, wideband, and CEL for knock. Meh, live and learn.

If I get motivated enough, and get warm enough weather on a saturday, I might just drop the pan again and replace the pump. It seems to be running well, but I dunno....that crank and rod is pretty trashed. I really would like to get to the dyno before I tear this all back down again because when I do that I'll probably be replacing the head with a G head. Plus I still have C16 in the gas tank I love the smell of that exhaust

[2.216VTurbo]

Are you blowing the dipstick and/or is it huffing out the oil fill cap when idling? I'm thinking about all the oil 'packing' in the head because of excessive pressure pushing up thru the head/block drainback holes. The shop I use for service on my 928( when it's stuff over my head) has seen dozens of blown motors in them from sustained high RPM operation. He cautions me against any near redline operation for more than 15 or so seconds. nothing left in the pan after that. Also, did you mod the oil pump pick up hole?

[BadAssPerformance]

^^^ Good point for prolonged time

I'm sure you have the correct pan and pickup. From memory there were a couple different pick up tubes too. The smaller diameter one like on the 87 TII was a little longer.

Attachment 52538

[moparzrule]

Are you blowing the dipstick and/or is it huffing out the oil fill cap when idling? I'm thinking about all the oil 'packing' in the head because of excessive pressure pushing up thru the head/block drainback holes. The shop I use for service on my 928( when it's stuff over my head) has seen dozens of blown motors in them from sustained high RPM operation. He cautions me against any near redline operation for more than 15 or so seconds. nothing left in the pan after that. Also, did you mod the oil pump pick up hole?

No, there's no blowby at all.

I did mod the pickup so there's full screen now, but I didn't have it originally...seems to have same results anyway. See this post-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1063326

It now looks like the melling pickup tube.

This is the kind of pan I have, the deep sump common block 2.2....controls the oil WAY better than the 2.5 pan and the pickup is deeper as well into the pan compared to the 2.5 pickup.

^^^ Good point for prolonged time

I'm sure you have the correct pan and pickup. From memory there were a couple different pick up tubes too. The smaller diameter one like on the 87 TII was a little longer.

Attachment 52538

Attachment isn't working for me. My 88 T2 pickup seems to be the same as the 89 CB pickup. I matched them up between my stock 88 T2 engine and the 89 CB 2.2 I bought to replace it, identical pickups. Autozone confirms this by having the same part number as well.

There also was no prolonged time, I punched it at 3000 RPM and let off by 6000 when I noticed the oil pressure dive, it was only a few seconds.

So can anyone answer my question about how much oil it should take? My dipstick shows full after I use a 5 quart oil fill (so that means there's only 4 in the pan with 1 being in the filter). Just wondering if my dipstick is wrong.

[cordes]

IIRC all 2.2/2.5 8v Chryslers were recommended to take 4 quarts with filter. I find it exceptionally hard to believe that this could be your problem.

[acannell]

No, there's no blowby at all.

I did mod the pickup so there's full screen now, but I didn't have it originally...seems to have same results anyway. See this post-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1063326

It now looks like the melling pickup tube.

This is the kind of pan I have, the deep sump common block 2.2....controls the oil WAY better than the 2.5 pan and the pickup is deeper as well into the pan compared to the 2.5 pickup.







Attachment isn't working for me. My 88 T2 pickup seems to be the same as the 89 CB pickup. I matched them up between my stock 88 T2 engine and the 89 CB 2.2 I bought to replace it, identical pickups. Autozone confirms this by having the same part number as well.

There also was no prolonged time, I punched it at 3000 RPM and let off by 6000 when I noticed the oil pressure dive, it was only a few seconds.

So can anyone answer my question about how much oil it should take? My dipstick shows full after I use a 5 quart oil fill (so that means there's only 4 in the pan with 1 being in the filter). Just wondering if my dipstick is wrong.

hmm

is the part number the same for the dipstick tube for whatever engine normally uses that deep sump and pickup?

and does it locate the dipstick tube in the exact same spot on the block (do 2.5CB and 2.2 have the same dipstick tube location?)

[GLHNSLHT2]

Everything really does point to the relief valve. You know it's kind of funny, having the 4 bar cal making it break up in the top end was a blessing in disguise....it was keeping me from revving it real high all the time. But this whole time figuring that out I never noticed the oil pressure taking a dump because I was so focused on timing and air/fuel. Swapped to the 3 bar and a cal for it, pulled great up top and then oil starved my engine. If only I paid attention to all my gauges, but I only watched the oil pressure while cruising around and idle....at WOT my eyes were glued to boost, wideband, and CEL for knock. Meh, live and learn.

If I get motivated enough, and get warm enough weather on a saturday, I might just drop the pan again and replace the pump. It seems to be running well, but I dunno....that crank and rod is pretty trashed. I really would like to get to the dyno before I tear this all back down again because when I do that I'll probably be replacing the head with a G head. Plus I still have C16 in the gas tank I love the smell of that exhaust

If it is the relief valve then what is the solution to fixing it? and should we be doing this to all oil pumps?

[moparzrule]

I think it's just faulty somehow. Solution is to replace the pump!

IIRC all 2.2/2.5 8v Chryslers were recommended to take 4 quarts with filter. I find it exceptionally hard to believe that this could be your problem.

I agree, problem has to be the pump itself. I have the original pump from my 88 T2 engine, and that one is known good. I drove the car home 2 hours on it, though I drove easy no WOT high RPM runs lol.

[acannell]

I think it's just faulty somehow. Solution is to replace the pump!



I agree, problem has to be the pump itself. I have the original pump from my 88 T2 engine, and that one is known good. I drove the car home 2 hours on it, though I drove easy no WOT high RPM runs lol.

there should be something very obvious wrong with the pump if its defective. either a huge gap between the rotor and the surfaces above and below it or a huge gap between its lobes and the outer rotor, or perhaps between the outer rotor and housing

and there is no doubt the oil filter is correct? how plugged up was the old one with bearing chunks?

[boost geek]

looks great nice intake! I use the same pan

[moparzrule]

there should be something very obvious wrong with the pump if its defective. either a huge gap between the rotor and the surfaces above and below it or a huge gap between its lobes and the outer rotor, or perhaps between the outer rotor and housing

and there is no doubt the oil filter is correct? how plugged up was the old one with bearing chunks?

If the relief valve is whats bad there won't be anything obvious. When I had the pickup off I did look up in and the rotor looked fine (though I didn't spin it all the way around).

Whats the filter have to do with anything? The only thing a bad filter would do, is not filter because the bypass valve would get stuck open. It is a purolator, so it's good quality.

[BadAssPerformance]

No, there's no blowby at all.

I did mod the pickup so there's full screen now, but I didn't have it originally...seems to have same results anyway. See this post-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1063326

It now looks like the melling pickup tube.

Either of the pickups you show should work with that pan. Not sure why attachment didn't work but for the shorter one I was referring to the other larger diameter pickup with the bracket attached.