88' shelby Z quest for 11's (lots of pics)

[moparzrule]

Well, I'll make that determination when I drop the pan and unbolt the rods to see the crank first hand. I seriously doubt that the crank is not chewed up pretty badly, given the engine actually locked up until it cooled back down lol.

[turbovanman²]

Thank you Would the same apply to the main studs?

Nope, with main studs, just install and torque. As Brent said, it might need line honing. I did 3 blocks with studs, 2 were perfectly fine, one needed honing.

I will do a complete rebuild, including resizing the rods, when I pull it all apart. But right now I don't even want to take the head off, bottom end rod bearing replacement only. Like I said I know it will not last long at all, but all it has to last is the drive to the dyno and a few pulls on the dyno. I'm not interested in trying to get it to last longer by resizing the rods and then putting that back on a questionable crank and most likely an engine with metal floating around in the oil passages. I'm sure the mains have had metal introduced and they are ripping themselves apart now too.

I was only planning on knocking down any high spots. Pretty cold here now to do a cold start on 20w50, I was just going to do 10w40.

I may ruin the crank more, if that's the case I will just find another crank when I rebuild. We know the rods are already trashed. Not super stoked about going .5mm under on the crank anyway. I might try and find a cast 2.2 CB crank for the rebuild.

I have a good, forged 2.2 TIII crank if you need one?

[Ondonti]

Well, I'll make that determination when I drop the pan and unbolt the rods to see the crank first hand. I seriously doubt that the crank is not chewed up pretty badly, given the engine actually locked up until it cooled back down lol.

Well thats probably true but you probably didn't have much oil pressure so you won't get far with a cheap repair. With good oil pressure a spun rod bearing will not lock up. It was your pistons seizing in the bore. Either your oil pump is toast or your pickup sucked air when most of your oil was "up" in the motor or both. Your crankshaft will turn longer than your pistons will move up and down when you have no oil.
I forgot that your motor seized. You are going to be worrying more about if your cylinders need to be honed etc since it seized.

[moparzrule]

I'm not so sure the pistons is what seized the engine, I had oil pressure when it locked up and I still had good pressure after it cooled down and it could start back up. It didn't lock up during the pass, but afterwards I was just sitting idling and the engine just quit.

[moparzrule]

Got a chance to pull the pan today. Right away saw a pile of bearing metal in the bottom of the pan....uh oh.




Pulled off the number one rod, bearing looked fine no problem, so I put it back on and properly torqued it to 50ft/lbs (did the loosen and re-torque thing too). So I went over to the number 4, right away I started to loosen the bolt and the whole rod jiggled. So I grabbed it by hand, thing moved around like it had NO bearing at all in it! So I pulled that sucker off, looked at the journal yeah pretty chewed up, looked in the rod end that was pretty chewed but I was like...where's the bearing? Hell it was still on the crank! I didn't even realize THAT was the bearing I was looking at LMAO. It has smashed flat onto the journal so there was no gap on the sides like normal.



So I pulled off 2 and 3. 2 was only minor starting, but 3 was fairly bad too. Not enough to mess up the crank journal yet though, that was still ok. So just the number 4 crank journal is pretty messed up.





With as bad as the big end on that rod is, I might not even attempt what I was think of doing. That bearing spun MANY times in it and it's chewed to hell. But honestly, it's only $30 for bearings and I don't really have anything to lose. It won't take much time at all to throw those bearings in and button it back up. Cylinder walls look fine, it really was the bearing locking it up.

I'm going to buy a cast crank from autozone, for a 90' Omni 2.2L TBI, pull the whole engine and rebuild this whole thing all over again. I want to put the A568 in it anyway while I have it out.

[acannell]

With as bad as the big end on that rod is, I might not even attempt what I was think of doing. That bearing spun MANY times in it and it's chewed to hell. But honestly, it's only $30 for bearings and I don't really have anything to lose. It won't take much time at all to throw those bearings in and button it back up. Cylinder walls look fine, it really was the bearing locking it up.

I'm going to buy a cast crank from autozone, for a 90' Omni 2.2L TBI, pull the whole engine and rebuild this whole thing all over again. I want to put the A568 in it anyway while I have it out.

If you're going to try and get away with just new bearings, heres what I'd do:

-Flush the oil system somehow..gonna have to get clever here, but its worth it.
-Measure the crank journal clearance to your new bearings with plastigage and your new bearings. Its good to know whats what. If your clearances are still in spec thats some solid info.
-Remove scuffs from the crank journals if possible. May be some diamond hones or very high grit sandpaper. Not sure if it will embed crap in the journals but I'd bet not. They are ground, after all.
-Do some ball-park measurements on the rods to see if they are all the same length. Hey just cheapo calipers would be better than nothing. If the rod that ate the bearing is 0.002" longer than the others thats probably no bueno, but its good to know. See if you can compare them and detect any differences between the rods.
-Is the assumption that the pistons and rings are good-to-go or are you going to take them out? I suppose you could do a compression test once you put the new bearings in, before you close up the pan.

And its still a mystery as to why this happened right? I'd be looking for a MAJOR cause. People aren't liquidating their bearings every day in TM/TD land. Something really un-normal happened.

[turbovanman²]

Is your fuel diluted? Wonder what the mains look like. I forgot, did you measure clearances?

[moparzrule]

What do you mean diluted simon? You mean is it straight C16 or some unleaded it in? It's about 2-3 gallons of 93 and 4 gallons of C16.

Yeah I'm still wondering on the cause. The fact that it gets progressively worse to number 4 makes me logically think oil starvation. So my answer to that simply is, this time when I rebuild I will not re-use the oil pump and I will buy a new pickup screen too (even though they both appeared fine).

I was not accelerated nearly hard enough to case oil starvation, not to mention it's nearly impossible on straight acceleration to lose oil at the pickup ESPECIALLY with the deep well 2.2 pan and longest/deepest pickup there is for these engines.

[acannell]

What do you mean diluted simon? You mean is it straight C16 or some unleaded it in? It's about 2-3 gallons of 93 and 4 gallons of C16.

Yeah I'm still wondering on the cause. The fact that it gets progressively worse to number 4 makes me logically think oil starvation. So my answer to that simply is, this time when I rebuild I will not re-use the oil pump and I will buy a new pickup screen too (even though they both appeared fine).

I was not accelerated nearly hard enough to case oil starvation, not to mention it's nearly impossible on straight acceleration to lose oil at the pickup ESPECIALLY with the deep well 2.2 pan and longest/deepest pickup there is for these engines.

well, even though I tend to skimp as much as possible when putting my engine back together since it happens so OFTEN since I'm always doing fitment tests or what have you, I wouldn't even bother trying to get lucky with new bearings unless you totally nail the cause of the oil starvation...it should be really, really obvious what happened. i mean something like the oil pump seized and is totally scuffed or the int shaft pulley came loose or something...

[moparzrule]

Oh no, whatever the cause was it was not permanent. I drove the car onto the trailer and drove it back off at my house. Had oil pressure just a bad knock.

I guess I'm not 100% sure it was oil starvation, it just seems that way since it gets progressively worse over to number 4. Number 1 bearing looked perfectly fine. You can see number 2 there in the pics, not too bad but starting.

[GLHNSLHT2]

previous owner of my 87 SHelby Z used so much RTV on the pan it dried and fell into the pan and into the pickup. I thought it was the #1 it starved for oil but it's been years ago. The bearing welded itself to the rod cap and I almost couldn't get it off. It had the slightest knock for about a week before that. I couldn't hear it but at a certain rpm/throttle position and only next to other cars so they were constantly either hitting the brakes or flooring it thinking I wanted to race. Well one big burnout showing off to a friend and the knock got louder. Made it a block from my house when I rounded a corner in 2nd gear the engine locked up. Pushed it into the parking lot and came back with a trailer. She fired up but with a loud knock when I revved it. Drove it up onto the trailer and took it to the garage for it's 2.5 conversion I think the bearing material is what F'd over the turbo a year later.

[moparzrule]

Hmm yeah I didn't think about the turbo. Well, even if it still lasts a year that's ok. I plan on switching to a G head and holset by then.

But the pickup looks clear, and I didn't use RTV anyway I used the rubber gasket that came with the lower end gasket and seal kit I got from TU.

I'm wondering if just the syle of pickup caused the oil starvation. I have the stock pickup, like this-




But maybe I should have gotten the melling replacement pickup-

[Chris W]

Hmm yeah I didn't think about the turbo. Well, even if it still lasts a year that's ok. I plan on switching to a G head and holset by then.

But the pickup looks clear, and I didn't use RTV anyway I used the rubber gasket that came with the lower end gasket and seal kit I got from TU.

I'm wondering if just the syle of pickup caused the oil starvation. I have the stock pickup, like this-




But maybe I should have gotten the melling replacement pickup-

Did you open the screen end larger to maximize flow?

Chris-TU

[moparzrule]

No, that's what I mean...since I didn't do that I think it got oil starved at 6000+ rpm. The combination of over torqueing and the pickup with that tiny window for oil probably caused everything.

IIRC in my shadow engine I used the melling pickup, probably why I didn't have any issues.

[Reaper1]

Check the oil pump as well as the gear on the pump and the I-shaft.

You also want to get rid of the sound deadening in the oil pan! I bet there is TONS of crap behind those baffles that is just waiting to destroy a new engine!

[moparzrule]

Well like I said I'm going to do a full rebuild again, so it'll all come out. I'll probably completely replace the oil pump. I have another one on the shelf ready to go. But for now I'm just going to throw in new bearings, dump some 20w50 in it, and try to dyno it LOL.

Yeah I'll do that now. The pan came from an engine that was in good running shape which is why I didn't bother (plus time constraints).

[knownenemy]

moparzrule, I hear you noting the oil pressure being fine repeatedly,
but I wonder where you're gauge is connected?
The pressure may be good THERE, but in other places throughout the system it could be nonexistent.
If you've got an oil pressure test gauge, I'd be sure to check my pressure at several different points.
You may have one oil galley blocked, and starving #4.

Just a thought I had while reading the latest posts.
Best wishes with it my friend.

[moparzrule]

It's in the stock distribution block, same one that feeds the turbo.

An interesting point, but if the galley was blocked, I don't think it would have even lasted the 500 miles it did though.

What other ports/places could I even test it?

[moparzrule]

Although the problem is progressive, getting worse as you head toward number 4, I can't rule out detonation as a cause. With that 4 bar cal it was breaking up badly on the top end. And at one point I was running 20 PSI.

[acannell]

moparzrule, I hear you noting the oil pressure being fine repeatedly,
but I wonder where you're gauge is connected?
The pressure may be good THERE, but in other places throughout the system it could be nonexistent.
If you've got an oil pressure test gauge, I'd be sure to check my pressure at several different points.
You may have one oil galley blocked, and starving #4.

Just a thought I had while reading the latest posts.
Best wishes with it my friend.

I would concur..wouldnt the simplest explanation for all this be that there was some blockage in the oil passages? Which allowed the engine to survive at normal driving for awhile (being damaged the whole time), but then when you went racing perhaps starved things just a little bit more and lead to massive bearing failure?

I think you need to flush your oil passages out. Its such a strong suspect that even to just do a slap-together and cross your fingers style rebuild its still worth it. But Im not sure its possible with the crank in place. If there is a blockage it will just keep moving until it gets stuck. But...

Perhaps you could do the following:

-oil pan off
-rod caps off
-provide a pressurized oil source to the distribution block. (*)
-visually see that oil seems to be coming out on each rod bearing hole equally. Maybe there is an obvious difference, and you win. Or there is not an obvious difference. Oh well.

*- invent a pressurized oil source